[X] My Assistant

[rhonie8k]

I will begin by clearly stating I regret eighteen years of learned meat eating. I will admit to being hypocritical but so are most people who step fut in a church at some point in there life. Due to a lack of strength of will I will not stop eating meat anytime soon but I can argue fairly on why it is wrong to eat meat in nearly every aspect. I will prefer not to start the debate and I may argue a little bit on each side but before I truly begin ranting for either view I would like to see opinions.

[Lord Raven]

i'd rather you start, but i've apparently learned of recent long term studies which have concluded meat is more or less the main source and most easily accessible source of protein, and without protein you're a) barely a man and b) weak. but i don't know what you think of these studies.

[Muyotwo]

i'd rather you start, but i've apparently learned of recent long term studies which have concluded meat is more or less the main source and most easily accessible source of protein, and without protein you're a) barely a man and b) weak. but i don't know what you think of these studies.

In most diets, yes meat is the main source of protein. However there are a number of other protein sources which vegetarians have access to now. Studies have shown time and again that vegetarians live longer, have less risk of cancer and heart problems and considering that an NFL Tight End made the Pro Bowl consisting of an entirely Vegan diet I don't think the "barely a man" or "weak" labels can hold water.

[rhonie8k]

I will state my primary fact now that some discussion has begun. It can be scientifically proven that humans evolved as herbivorous animals. It there for goes against nature that we eat meat.

[Ninja Of Darknes...]

do vegitarians eat animal crackers?

[rhonie8k]

depends whats in the crackers

[Rchicken31]

Even if humans evolved as herbivores we are still slowly evolving and who says the newly evolved humans can't be omnivores
Sorry but It might now have been human nature to be a herbivore a couple thousand years ago but were constantly adapting and changing

This post has been edited by Rchicken31: Jan 15 2010, 05:19 PM

[Lord Raven]

i'd rather you start, but i've apparently learned of recent long term studies which have concluded meat is more or less the main source and most easily accessible source of protein, and without protein you're a) barely a man and b) weak. but i don't know what you think of these studies.

In most diets, yes meat is the main source of protein. However there are a number of other protein sources which vegetarians have access to now. Studies have shown time and again that vegetarians live longer, have less risk of cancer and heart problems and considering that an NFL Tight End made the Pro Bowl consisting of an entirely Vegan diet I don't think the "barely a man" or "weak" labels can hold water.

i guess the sarcasm in my post didn't transfer well huh, but i guess it's less funny to explain the joking around behind that entire post (aside from the protein thing -- more or less all protein is gotten from animals, and we need protein to help sustain our muscles if i recall correctly. and this is definitely what i meant by making you weak -- no way in fuck could you have possibly taken 'eating meat makes you a man' as a logical argument, ESPECIALLY from a global moderator at this forum).

whether or not they live longer or have less cancer risk or heart problems is of no consolation to me considering, despite the fact that i eat meat a lot, i balance it with many other things on top of the fact that not being able to live far past 70 something isn't much of an issue to me anyway.

I will state my primary fact now that some discussion has begun. It can be scientifically proven that humans evolved as herbivorous animals. It there for goes against nature that we eat meat.

it can? i'm blown away by the massive amount of proof i've seen within your post. like, jesus christ, if there was any proof evident in your clearly well thought out response i'd swear it would start dropping my pants and kicking me in the balls right now

do vegitarians eat animal crackers?

what? are you serious?

[Dazmi]

I have nothing against meat, and I don't care if people decide to become a vegetation.
My view is that the animal is dead regardless, and me not eating meat won't help that much.
I will admit, I do feel bad for how some of the animals have to live out their lives.

If protein is a concern, there are other sources of protein other than meat.
I'm guessing this is the "alternatives" in the "meat & alternatives" food group.

This post has been edited by Dazmi: Jan 15 2010, 06:03 PM

[Dmitri Shostakov...]

Too much protein can lead to kidney stones...

[Lord Raven]

well gee then don't eat too much meat.

If protein is a concern, there are other sources of protein other than meat.
I'm guessing this is the "alternatives" in the "meat & alternatives" food group.

such as? oh -- i know they exist -- i'm just curious what you have to suggest. because i'm pretty sure it's impossible to eat protein without eating a part of an animal, however small a part that might be referring to.
besides, if they're not my race, i have no need to care much for them to be honest, even if it is another life.

[Dazmi]

well gee then don't eat too much meat.

If protein is a concern, there are other sources of protein other than meat.
I'm guessing this is the "alternatives" in the "meat & alternatives" food group.

such as? oh -- i know they exist -- i'm just curious what you have to suggest. because i'm pretty sure it's impossible to eat protein without eating a part of an animal, however small a part that might be referring to.
besides, if they're not my race, i have no need to care much for them to be honest, even if it is another life.

Sorry if some of these sound a little silly.

Okay let's see... I hear Lentil is very rich in protein.
Some people say whole wheat bread contains protein.
Parmesan cheese (I think it's Parmesan).
Peanuts for sure.
Avocados.
Walnuts, I hear.

[Lord Raven]

oh i think most of those sound about right, although i really don't think people will be eating that nearly as much as meat.

[rhonie8k]

to state the facts out my self would take to much time the simplest way to argue humans evolved as herbivores is to show you this link http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm our physical features are to similar to deny especially when compared to the carnivores. People still fall on to the omnivore argument and if we were we would get our longest and healthiest lifespans from people who eat a balanced diet including meat and not from vegans and vegetarians. The way it currently stands is that in the next several generations humans may evolve into true omnivores but that is currently not the case.

to argue things from a bit of a religious stand point [Christian religion anyway] you can and must point out a few key verses beginning with genesis 1:29 "And God said, Behold, I have given every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is to the fruits of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." This is important besides the fact that it clearly says god said to eat fruit it is the first reference to eating in the bible and food is announced as meat and is often later used in place of nourishment and mistakenly taken to mean the flesh of animals.
thats all i have time to argue right now

[Lord Raven]

the moment i saw god mentioned in that article [and your post] i stopped reading.

[Muyotwo]

i guess the sarcasm in my post didn't transfer well huh, but i guess it's less funny to explain the joking around behind that entire post (aside from the protein thing -- more or less all protein is gotten from animals, and we need protein to help sustain our muscles if i recall correctly. and this is definitely what i meant by making you weak -- no way in fuck could you have possibly taken 'eating meat makes you a man' as a logical argument, ESPECIALLY from a global moderator at this forum).

Sarcasm is easy to miss in text form, but as Dazmi pointed out there are a number of protein sources that do not involve meat. The typical lynchpin of most vegetarian products, however, are soybeans, as soy protein is one of the best sources of good protein that exists.
You are also correct that Protein is necessary to rebuild the muscle cells that break down in day to day use.

As for the "Why should I care about them, they're not my species" argument you posed, I'll counter with an argument that doesn't necessitate you care about anything but yourself. Livestock (particularly sheep and cattle) produce a fair quantity of methane gas in their day to day life. The fact that the demand for meat is so high means that the need for a large number of this livestock to be on hand means there are millions of animals producing hundreds of liters of methane gas a day. Considering the current trends towards cutting down on emissions, one could have a great effect on the environment by eating less/no meat and reducing the need for said cattle. (I had to do a bunch of research on methane emissions for a Physics assignment in University a few years back). (related source http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2001/2000JD900808.shtml

Another quick little factoid that only involves caring about humans: Resources. If we took all the grains and such that Americans use to feed cattle every year there would be enough to end world hunger. That's one country cutting out one meat product. Quite a difference, really.

It's hard to defend vegetarianism without getting on a high horse about it, but I tried not to be too antagonistic.

[Blemmigan]

typical, i spend so long typing out my little nonsense post that i'm cut off q:
I apologise to Muyotwo about this, as I haven't typed anything in response to your post at all, having only just seen it. Unless this counts as a response, of course. In which, hallo.

also, muhed, sounds like you need one of these.
/sarcasm

On with the post.

As a rule, I don't care what people eat or don't eat.. it's your choice after all.
I'm not going to go around and insist that vegetarians eat meat [because, to be honest, the "FOR EVERY ANIMAL YOU DON'T EAT, I'LL EAT TWO" people are every bit as annoying as the "YOU MUST NOT EAT MEAT IT'S UNNATURAL/UNHEALTHY/CRUEL" people q:].
and also.. as I just said, I genuinely don't care whether vegetarians eat meat or not.
Good for you. I don't eat much meat anyway [as I think most people don't], but if I love spam and escalopes too much to put my foot down and say "NO" to it all. Deny myself something and that's all I'll want, no? :v

but hey, it's an internet debate, right? both sides arguing with facts rather than soul liable to be offended [I can dream..]
Soo, hey ho.

Just looking through that there link you posted.. picking out a few choice quotes.

Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws
Humans: no claws

some of them are a bit odd, to be honest.
Snakes don't have claws, but they eat meat. And let's not of course forget those herbivore dinosaurs, complete with a set of claws.
Or kangaroos, if you prefer to compare to a mammal. Many large kangaroo species are herbivores, with some smaller species being omnivorous.

Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

i'm cautious to mention the canine teeth I have in my own mouth.
Still, it's a nice mix of cutting teeth and grinding teeth.. wouldn't that imply that humans would be suited to both meat and plants?

Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits

I'm pretty sure that carnivores have salivary glands in their mouth o.o
I won't mention dogs, as i think that they're omnivores, not carnivores [not sure, but may as well leave them out in case], but cats are constantly licking themselves as they groom, and iirc it's the saliva in cats that most people are allergic to, not the hair, as it tends to spray everywhere in microscopic globules while they clean. nice.

anyway, I think I'm confusing myself.. particularly the part about saliva being acidic in carnivores. I'm trying to search for a ref on this but I can't find one.
But I think I remember reading that the saliva in humans is slightly alkaline to counter the acidity in the mouth that can build up from bacteria and wear away at the teeth.
Weirdly the only references to carnivores having acidic saliva that I can find are on pro-vegetarian sites which, while that's nice, does make it seem as though they all reference/directly quote each other instead of another [more neutral] source. It's probably just because I'm not yet thinking clearly today [why else would I be replying to this? q:] though.

I'll agree that humans aren't meant to eat a diet made totally of meat. But we can eat meat: the very fact that we can digest, process and benefit from the proteins in meat shows that we're pretty good at dealing with it.
We can also process most plant matter, though we're not that apt at eating grass off of the ground in the way that established herbivores such as cows and horses can. In fact, we can't process it and extract energy from the cellulose. Our digestive system isn't as efficient at this as cows, for example, are: they of course have four stomachs and the appropriate bacteria in their gut.

Now, of course, humans can and do eat and extract that tasty tasty goodness from plants and fruits without needing meat on top of that, otherwise there'd be a swarm of dead or dying vegetarians about, and clearly there aren't or somebody would have noticed.

but I can't believe that humans "aren't designed to eat meat", and comparing a lot of strange things. Yes, we don't have gills or fins, so we're clearly not "designed" to be in the water, and yet we still teach our children to swim.

Comparing things like claws and skin pores is bizarre- you may as well say "okay, we're more like a tiger than a giraffe because we don't have hooves or long necks, so we should eat meat."
which is of course equally nonsensical.

As for the religious standpoint.. okay, don't eat meat if that's what your religion says. I'm not fantastic at religious knowledge by any means, but certain religions ban certain foodstuffs.. but that's not the same as health.
besides, I think that God allowed Noah and his family to eat meat after the flood, though i only got that from a QI episode, haha. Still, Stephen Fry says it, so it must be right.

No, "eat them" is the right answer, 'cause according to the Bible, Adam and Eve were vegetarians, told by God to eat fruit and vegetables only. Some theological authorities believe that the "forbidden fruit", which is not specifically named in the Bible, er, which was eaten by Adam and Eve, was, in fact, a banana. It was only after the Great Flood, when God made a new covenant with Noah, and said, "Every living thing that moves will be yours to eat." Somehow, we got from there to Bernard Matthews' Golden Turkey Drummers.

This post has been edited by Halfwit: Jan 16 2010, 08:20 AM

[Jack Frost]

I feel no regret eating meat!
Why? Because I don't pay it!

There's a possibility that I'll move alone in March which naturally means I'll start to buy my own food, prepare it etc...
That's when I'll become a some sorta lacto-pesco-vegetarian or something like that. That is when I can choose wether not to have or to have meat.
My intention is to stop eating chicken (maybe eggs too) and red meat. One of the reasons is global warming.

There is no point at all becoming a vegetarian when you live with your parents. Why? Because you only make yourself graver burden on your family's economy. If you're the only vegetarian in a house with other people who eat red meat, they simply buy the amount of meat they used to buy and something special for the vegetarian of the house.
T.ex. my sister became a vegetarian at the age of 13. I think that's 5 years too early.

Edit: Being a vegetarian doesn't mean you lose proteins nor other nutrients from your dish. Soy meat is a great replacement for meat generally. In fact, some people say Japanese live long because they eat so much soy xD

This post has been edited by Jack Frost: Jan 16 2010, 08:13 AM

[Lord Raven]

Sarcasm is easy to miss in text form, but as Dazmi pointed out there are a number of protein sources that do not involve meat. The typical lynchpin of most vegetarian products, however, are soybeans, as soy protein is one of the best sources of good protein that exists.
You are also correct that Protein is necessary to rebuild the muscle cells that break down in day to day use.

ah yes but when someone's going into a serious argument, you honestly can't expect "being a vegetarian makes you a weak man" to be a legitimate argument can you?

As for the "Why should I care about them, they're not my species" argument you posed, I'll counter with an argument that doesn't necessitate you care about anything but yourself. Livestock (particularly sheep and cattle) produce a fair quantity of methane gas in their day to day life. The fact that the demand for meat is so high means that the need for a large number of this livestock to be on hand means there are millions of animals producing hundreds of liters of methane gas a day. Considering the current trends towards cutting down on emissions, one could have a great effect on the environment by eating less/no meat and reducing the need for said cattle. (I had to do a bunch of research on methane emissions for a Physics assignment in University a few years back). (related source http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2001/2000JD900808.shtml

Talk to someone who actually believes global warming is a big deal.

Oh, don't get me wrong, it definitely does exist. I just don't think we're as fucked as people think.

Another quick little factoid that only involves caring about humans: Resources. If we took all the grains and such that Americans use to feed cattle every year there would be enough to end world hunger. That's one country cutting out one meat product. Quite a difference, really.

Or we can donate meat and teach them to cook it.

[Reyo]

Ok, here's my main argument. I love meat. I enjoy meat. Nothing beats a spam and egg sandwich with hotsause coming out of every oroface. Can I live without meat? Most likely. It's not like I have a dependance on it. The reason I eat meat is because I like it. My tastebuds register the meat as something asthenically pleasing. I understand that our ancesters evolved as herbivores. For that, I have two things: 1) I'm not my ancesters, and 2) The only reason they "evolved" as herbivores, as you say, is because catching a bison or pig was so bloody hard to do that they figured a ripe tomato was a hell of alot better than a bison considering tomatoes didn't run away when you got too close. When it comes to religion...srsly?...I agree with Raven on that, I stopped reding AS SOON AS I saw that you put religion into this argument.

It's physically possible for humans to eat meat. Need proof? Look at your neighbor. Look at your Cousin. Look at your Boss. Hell, pick any person on this planet to look at. It is physically possible for a human being to eat meat, digest it, and the process the nutrient that meat offers. That being said, how is it evolutionary for people to become vegetarians? If it's that "God's creatures" bullshit argument then I might as well stop you there and refer you to the underlined portion of my comment.

I eat defensless cows and pigs and chickens. Why? Because I can. Is it not fair? Life isn't fair. Am I savage for doing so? Evolution is a savage process. Ronny didn't fight his way to the top of the food chain to nibble on carrots.

Too much protein can lead to kidney stones...

Too much sunlight leads to skin cancer.
Too much water leads to overhydration.
Too much Tylenol leads to dependency.

Too much of anything is bad for you. It's not something new.

I will begin by clearly stating I regret eighteen years of learned meat eating. I will admit to being hypocritical but so are most people who step fut in a church at some point in there life. Due to a lack of strength of will I will not stop eating meat anytime soon but I can argue fairly on why it is wrong to eat meat in nearly every aspect. I will prefer not to start the debate and I may argue a little bit on each side but before I truly begin ranting for either view I would like to see opinions.

I love how 90% of your comment says "meat eaters can't control themselves", 5% of it says "church goers are just as bad" and the other 5% says "but I don't want a debate." You can't insult people and then leave.