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Debate of Romney and Obama!, Talk about the presidential debate!
Mars Adept Enten
post Nov 7 2012, 11:15 AM
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ASFS;DKLJFASDARJWE ;RJ S;KDJF;LSDKJGASLEKAFJA;SDKJFSDLKRJ;WEKJR-RRAAGH!

-my reaction upon seeing the results. I'm a red-blooded Republican, so you can probably guess just why I reacted like this. Now watch as how the national debt gets worse, abortions still remain legal, religious liberties of Christians get trampled upon, and other such BS happens during the next four (IMO nightmarish) years. pissed.gif Go ahead and tear these arguments apart; I don't care.

This post has been edited by Mars Adept Enten: Nov 7 2012, 02:34 PM


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post Nov 7 2012, 12:37 PM
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QUOTE(Sora the Pikachu @ Nov 7 2012, 01:21 AM) *
QUOTE(Giraffe A Laugh @ Nov 6 2012, 05:52 PM) *
QUOTE(Sora the Pikachu @ Nov 6 2012, 06:02 PM) *
I would vote for Romney. Ever since Obama came in, gas prices have gone up, and with Romney, his plans will help gas prices go down and create more jobs.
I mean, what has Obama done ever since he came into office other then sit back and react once events unfold?

Total Romney. In my school election, Romney even won.

Besides, I can't vote anyways, not old enough to.



I might not be American, so I can't vote at all, which is such a shame~
but anyways
I figured this link would be insightful as to why people are voting for obama (and also, just to show that obama has indeed done things, instead of sitting back and watching :p )
http://pleasecutthecrap.typepad.com/main/w...ry-20-2009.html

To be perfectly honest, if I had to chose between the two, the only reason I'd pretty much vote for obama is because he doesn't come off as a bigot, unlike Romney. I just cannot make myself vote for someone who's so hateful towards others because of their sexuality/colour amongst other things.
They've both got their ups and downs, but romneys vision of a better american is pushing it way too far.

Anyways~ good luck t'you all who are voting.


True, true, yet Obama promised sooooooooooo many things, and most of them were just lies. Empty promises, and by the looks of things through my perspective, things aren't exactly changing that much, and not only that, but the Vice President Joe Biden was IMMENSELY rude towards Paul Ryan during the vice presidential campaign, I don't want anybody like THAT help lead the country.


To the underlined and bolded bit. Welcome to politics. All politicians lie and promise so many things.

What people don't understand, which pisses me off greatly, is that they can't do things with the click of their fingers. People just assume that they can do that. Well they can't. Yeah it's just as bad they go around promising all this stuff, but the chances are it'll take time. Everything takes times. The sooner people understand that the better

But woo Obama.


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Aura Dynasty
post Nov 7 2012, 01:27 PM
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To be honest, none of them ceases to amaze me... Sure thing the economic will stay a failure and it'll take MANY more presidents before it's solved, but I don't really am into politics... yet


As a member of the youth-parlement of Belgium I'm thinking that there are others who could do SO much better then the others, both candidates have good points as they have as many bad points. Obama's taking his time and Romney is hatefull towards people of other religions and skincolour... (if my intells correct).

IDC but i'm rather the one that can't put up with scientology... *god I hate those guys*


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post Nov 7 2012, 01:34 PM
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QUOTE(Mars Adept Enten @ Nov 7 2012, 11:15 AM) *
the national debt gets worse


Numbers from a site known as PresidentialDebt.org:

Date taken, President in office at the time, national debt at the time, and growth rate. Red indicates worsening trend, green indicates improving trend. I've cut down Bush's, but for the sake of completion, it worsened from 2001 to 2003, improved from 2004 to 2006 (6.2% being his second-lowest during office, it was lowest in 2001, at 5.0%, a year after he took office). Notably, the debt decreased during Clinton's last term in office, at a trend of -2.0%.

12/29/2006 BUSH $8,680,224,380,086 6.2%
12/28/2007 BUSH $9,229,172,659,218 6.3%
12/31/2008 BUSH $10,699,804,864,612 15.9%
12/31/2009 OBAMA $12,311,349,677,512 15.1%
12/31/2010 OBAMA $14,025,215,218,709 13.9%
12/31/2011 OBAMA $15,125,898,976,397 7.8%
06/30/2012 OBAMA $15,856,367,214,324 4.8%

The debt is increasing, but more slowly over 2008-2012 than it did during 2006-2008. Should the decrease continue in this trend, it will approach levels similar to those of the 90s as far as debt growth.

QUOTE(Mars Adept Enten @ Nov 7 2012, 11:15 AM) *
abortions still remain legal


This is not an issue I can just post numbers to, because the definition of fetus v. child is heavily entrenched in religious beliefs, and I don't wish to step on anyone's beliefs here. However, I will provide but one link on the topic of health and safety related to legalized abortion:

http://www.now.org/issues/abortion/roe30/beforeafter.html

I advise you to do your own research regarding it. There is a lot more to be said about abortion and all the various reasons and motivations for or against, but I'm trying not to intrude my own opinions here. (I hope I am not failing.)

QUOTE(Mars Adept Enten @ Nov 7 2012, 11:15 AM) *
religious liberties of Christians get trampled upon


Same to this one. I'm not even sure where to look for evidence for OR against this. I would ask that you more clearly define what you mean by the "religious liberties" of those in the Christian faith.

BONUS:

QUOTE(Sora the Pikachu @ Nov 6 2012, 6:02 PM)
True, true, yet Obama promised sooooooooooo many things, and most of them were just lies.


Unfortunately, Politifact isn't the most reliable source, but I cheated and used their Obameter aggregator to determine the numbers.

Total number of Promises (by their count): 508
Promises Kept: 193 (38%)
Promises Compromised: 79 (16%)
Promises Broken: 88 (17%)
Promises Stalled: 44 (9%)
In the Works: 102 (20%)
Not Rated: 2 (0%)

Unfortunately I don't have a source at the moment that calculates the average "promises kept" for all recent presidents, but I will amend this post if I find one.


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Mars Adept Enten
post Nov 7 2012, 02:32 PM
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By 'religious liberties', I'm talking about that 'employers being pretty much forced to let their employees use contraceptives that are damaging to the fetus/might inactively cause an abortion even if they themselves are pro-life" You have to understand that I was conceived out of wedlock when my biological mother was 16. Instead of taking 'the easy way out', AKA abortion, she gave me up for adoption because she couldn't take care of me, and knew that someone else could. I was adopted by my current parents, so I'm no longer considered a 'bastard child' in the legal sense. So when it comes to issues regarding this, I'm extremely sensitive, due to my circumstances.


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Galahawk
post Nov 7 2012, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE(Mars Adept Enten @ Nov 7 2012, 02:32 PM) *
By 'religious liberties', I'm talking about that 'employers being pretty much forced to let their employees use contraceptives that are damaging to the fetus/might inactively cause an abortion even if they themselves are pro-life" You have to understand that I was conceived out of wedlock when my biological mother was 16. Instead of taking 'the easy way out', AKA abortion, she gave me up for adoption because she couldn't take care of me, and knew that someone else could. I was adopted by my current parents, so I'm no longer considered a 'bastard child' in the legal sense. So when it comes to issues regarding this, I'm extremely sensitive, due to my circumstances.

Okay first of all, you don't use contraceptives when you're knowingly pregnant unless you're trying to self-induce an abortion, which I'm sure many people would rather not do when there's safe options in Planned Parenthood. You use contraception to prevent pregnancy, not to end it.
And secondly, contraceptives are NOT just for preventing pregnancies. I have a close friend who HAS to take birth control because her periods are seriously so bad that they can last weeks at a time and are excruciatingly painful to the point that she can't even function. Those people NEED it and you're acting as if that's a bad thing.

By choosing not to cover birth control for employees for religious reasons you're essentially indirectly forcing your religious beliefs on someone else. Kind of hypocritical that you're okay with your beliefs infringing on theirs but if theirs infringe on yours it's a horrible bad thing.

Not everybody is willing to go through childbirth like your biological mother was. It was her choice not to abort you because she was willing to go through with nine months of suffering followed by hours of labor/a c-section. Let's not forget to mention that costs related to childbirth (including prenatal care, hospital costs, medicine, etc) are REALLY DAMN EXPENSIVE. Not everybody wants to deal with that if they have an unplanned pregnancy so just because your circumstances were like that, you shouldn't act as if that's an option that everybody else SHOULD choose. It's selfish.

This post has been edited by Galahawk: Nov 7 2012, 05:14 PM


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post Nov 7 2012, 03:09 PM
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Mars, I don't believe any situation like that is easy, no matter what the woman chooses. Choosing abortion--ending a potential life as an embryo or a fetus--is no easier than giving up the born child for adoption. I don't have the firsthand experience you do, but I have seen what it does to women who choose abortion. No matter what, she is going to suffer in some way.

That said, an employer restricting employees from taking contraceptives based on the employer's religious beliefs is a removal of choice on the employees' part, not on the employer's. The liberties of the employees are the ones being trampled, because they are now required to prescribe to the employer's religious beliefs and the results of those beliefs, even if those employees do not agree with those beliefs.

You may, of course, argue that the employer's beliefs supersede those of the employees', but I think you would be hard-pressed to find an employee out there that is content with an employer dictating what he/she cannot do based on his/her employer's religious preferences.

So maybe the "religious liberties" of the employer are protected, but the rights of employees to maintain their health and safety are trampled in the process.

When the state or federal powers require that employers offer contraception to their employees, they are not requiring employers to provide "free abortion" cards to women. They are requiring them to provide a sometimes-vital medication to women who otherwise could not function without it. For instance, I take contraceptives because otherwise my menstruation cycle would be days longer than necessary and very heavy, making it difficult for me to function. There are other women who take it for similar reasons--one of my friends, for instance, has been hospitalized at least twice in the past few years due to her cycle, and cannot function without contraception--and no one but an uneducated woman would take it for the reason you describe above, to abort an unwanted pregnancy. That represents a fundamental misunderstanding of how contraceptives work and are marketed to women.

As an aside based on your wording, my employer doesn't pay for my contraceptives, but I'd be pretty upset if he came to me one day and said I couldn't take that medicine because it went against his religion.


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post Nov 7 2012, 03:31 PM
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My Vote went towards Obama,

the reason for this comes as the following:

~ When it comes to Economy, sure its bad and both sides said they have a plan that could help it, Obama after 4 years has tried to improve it but hasn't gotten to the numbers that he wanted. Personally thinking about the situation, no matter who is in office i don't think either person could easily work with the economy and heal it within 4 years. When it comes to this situation i hear people say Obama put us in the downfall and stuff like that....well i think we were already in the downfall before Obama took office the first time and he was left with a mess to try to pick up. There are many sites that say many different things and have many different numbers of what Obama has done but what people need to realize is that the Economy probably won't get fix like everyone wants even in 4 years time, it could possibly take a lot long. It could possibly take 8 years 10 years or more to fix the Economy and get it to an ideal status which means there would be a few presidents who would need to deal with it even after Obama.

~Another thing I looked at was Jobs, people keep complaining that Obama hasn't given enough jobs or there aren't enough jobs out there for people, while Romeny said that he could give people so many jobs if he became President. Well this is from personally experience, even though there are many jobs opened....there is no guarantee a person will get it. I have for the past 4 years even since i was 16 have tried to get a job but I have either been turned down or given some sort of excuse that i wasn't qualified for the job. Now I'm sure that there are people who have different situations and stuff like that but this is just from my experience that 12,000 new jobs could open up but not that many people get hired for them, the reason for this is there are companies out there who pick and choose who they want and who they don't, sometimes its based on appearance as well(Another experience because my aunt has been out of the job for 5+ years and it has been proven that some people wouldn't hire her because of her appearance or they didn't like her in general).

those are the two many things i looked at because during this whole election those seem to be the top two things that people attacked both sides with and seemed to important points that each side needed to make.

I also think the way people look at it that neither candidate was the ideal President but i did choose Obama over Romeny because of those reasons I listed above. But also what people need to keep in mind is that the Economy and other problems this country face won't be healed or fixed over night or with the snap of a finger, it will take time, it will take effort, and it will come with many set backs until we can get it right.


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Sora the Pikachu
post Nov 7 2012, 05:47 PM
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Can't believe Obama got re-elected. I AM SO MAD! EVERYONE IN MY SCHOOL WERE AS MAD AS A HORNET!!!!!

No use arguing now, except that by the year of 2016, the National Debt is going to go up to 20,000,000 dollars according to Fox News, which is a reliable news site...somewhat.

Not only that, but I swear, if I hear another story of how Obama tries to rid the Lord my God off of his party platform, I am going to go all berserk mode like Siax, and another story of how someone got their desperately needed feeding machine because of "Obama Care", GROGHGASLJHGDLGIU!

My say, no different, don't even quote me to point out stuff, especially stuff I already knew, I don't have the...patience...to deal with this.


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post Nov 7 2012, 05:59 PM
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I enjoy that we continue to have a President who does not consider somebody like me to be a second class citizen in more ways than one.


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Sora the Pikachu
post Nov 7 2012, 06:04 PM
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OH MY GHERD FAMOUS COMMANDER WYMSY!

Obama isn't a bad guy at all, I just don't think he's living up to my expectation. Now, Joe Biden needs to get out of office seeming as he treated Paul Ryan like a 3-year-old in front of EVERYBODY.


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post Nov 7 2012, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE(Sora the Pikachu @ Nov 7 2012, 11:04 PM) *
OH MY GHERD FAMOUS COMMANDER WYMSY!

Obama isn't a bad guy at all, I just don't think he's living up to my expectation. Now, Joe Biden needs to get out of office seeming as he treated Paul Ryan like a 3-year-old in front of EVERYBODY.


And what is your expectation? Magically getting everything perfect in 4 years? In a magical perfect world it's possible. In the real world, no it isn't.

Just because he's president doesn't mean he can click his fingers and America's problems can be sorted overnight. It just doesn't work like that.

Although I am intrigued as to what your expectations really are.

This post has been edited by Samoo: Nov 7 2012, 06:10 PM


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post Nov 7 2012, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE(Sora the Pikachu @ Nov 7 2012, 03:04 PM) *
Now, Joe Biden needs to get out of office seeming as he treated Paul Ryan like a 3-year-old in front of EVERYBODY.

Don't care that you slashed it out, it's in your post anyway and it's clearly not sarcasm.

I like that you say this when Paul Ryan treats minorities like me as if we're no better than the dirt everybody walks on.


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Sora the Pikachu
post Nov 7 2012, 06:16 PM
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How do you know that? (Now, I know it's not smart to question an administrator...)

When has Paul Ryan ever said we're just a couple of nobodies? Paul Ryan is a nice guy, but it's not like he'll recognize the names and faces of the millions of people in the U.S.! But what has he done that openly states that we're just 'dirt'?


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post Nov 7 2012, 06:18 PM
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I heard that Obama would make school in Summer, but I highly have doubt for that statement. I enjoyed watching those debates every couple of nights, and hearing what each president would do for our country. I like how Romney would lower gas prices a little, but also with takes. Anyone with over about 1 million dollars or makes a high salary, should pay a lot for taxes, but for people with lower money makings, they should pay the taxes they currently pay. At the final week, I laugh how desperate Obama is for votes, he lowered gas prices. I was watching Good Morning America this morning and I saw every state and which one Obama or Romney won that sates votes. Obama sadly won Massachusetts where I live, and then I saw, I think Hawaii, where Obama's hometown is, Obama won 93% votes, Romney 7%. He won a lot of states but not by a lot. Romney mostly one the middle states like Texas, Alaska, Alabama, but Obama won outer like D.C, California, Wisconsin, Ohio, etc. The only state undefined is Florida though.
I might be 12, but I like Romney.


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post Nov 7 2012, 06:19 PM
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I am so incredibly grateful to have a president who doesn't seek to deny me rights based on my gender, my sex, my sexuality, my religion (or lack thereof). I could never vote for a person who would seek to take my rights away. I believe that my body is my own and no one else gets a say on what happens to it. Ever. In any way. In any situation.


I believe I should be able to get married to whomever I want. And to have it be recognized by all forms of our government.


I also wish people would take a lesson in civics. The President can only do so much if Congress doesn't let him get on with it. If you want to blame someone for our country not being as far ahead as it could be, blame the jerks in Congress who sit on their asses and do nothing but pander to lobbyists and big oil companies instead of improving our country...who are so married to their party-lines that they do nothing but vote themselves pay raises. Blame them.

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post Nov 7 2012, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE(Sora the Pikachu)
by the year of 2016, the National Debt is going to go up to 20,000,000 dollars


I wish you would have at least tried to read my previous post in this thread. I'll quote the relevant part for you.

QUOTE(Wraenna)
Numbers from a site known as PresidentialDebt.org:

Date taken, President in office at the time, national debt at the time, and growth rate. Red indicates worsening trend, green indicates improving trend. I've cut down Bush's, but for the sake of completion, it worsened from 2001 to 2003, improved from 2004 to 2006 (6.2% being his second-lowest during office, it was lowest in 2001, at 5.0%, a year after he took office). Notably, the debt decreased during Clinton's last term in office, at a trend of -2.0%.

12/29/2006 BUSH $8,680,224,380,086 6.2%
12/28/2007 BUSH $9,229,172,659,218 6.3%
12/31/2008 BUSH $10,699,804,864,612 15.9%
12/31/2009 OBAMA $12,311,349,677,512 15.1%
12/31/2010 OBAMA $14,025,215,218,709 13.9%
12/31/2011 OBAMA $15,125,898,976,397 7.8%
06/30/2012 OBAMA $15,856,367,214,324 4.8%

The debt is increasing, but more slowly over 2008-2012 than it did during 2006-2008. Should the decrease continue in this trend, it will approach levels similar to those of the 90s as far as debt growth.


By the projections given, it is unlikely that our debt could increase over 20 trillion. Not impossible, just not likely.

EDIT: Nick has kindly pointed out to me that the number you gave is, in fact, 20 million, and not 20 trillion. It certainly would be nice if the deficit decreased by that huge of a margin in 4 years.

QUOTE(Sora the Pikachu)
according to Fox News, which is a reliable news site...somewhat


Your hedging betrays your uncertainty. I believe the following to be evidence enough as a response to this part:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel_controversies

As to the rest of your post, it's hard to tell if you are frustrated by the lack of religion in Obama's administration or frustrated by the apparent belief that Obama is trying to rid the government of religion. Similarly, it's hard to tell what you mean by "desperately needed feeding machine." I presume it's a baby, but I can't be certain, so I have no good response for it.

QUOTE(Sora the Pikachu)
My say, no different, don't even quote me to point out stuff, especially stuff I already knew, I don't have the...patience...to deal with this.


By posting in a section like this--and I understand it is not the Debates section--you are, in my mind, permitting other users to read and respond, in a tactful and intelligent manner, to what you are saying. Being able to quote what you are saying alleviates the need for users to return to the source text to locate sources of argumentation and debate. It's also a thing I do in writing; we call it using and citing sources.

Furthermore, if this is "stuff I already knew," then I guess it begs the question, "why do you still think this way?" If you find evidence that runs contrary to your opinions, are you simply taking it into consideration to moderate your opinions, or are you disregarding that evidence entirely? I would hope the former is true, but I know the latter can happen.

I would also wonder why you would "have the patience" to type out your thoughts, opinions, and beliefs here, if you don't have the patience to listen to criticisms of your thoughts, opinions, and beliefs. If you recognize yourself as instigating the discussion, it would be highly unfair to others if you simply choose to ignore comments opposite to your views. We also have a subforum for that: it's called the Ranting Zone.

I see that other posts have come in while I was writing this up. I'll add edits as needed.

This post has been edited by Wraenna: Nov 7 2012, 06:26 PM


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Commander Wymsy
post Nov 7 2012, 06:29 PM
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QUOTE(Sora the Pikachu @ Nov 7 2012, 03:16 PM) *
How do you know that? (Now, I know it's not smart to question an administrator...)

When has Paul Ryan ever said we're just a couple of nobodies? Paul Ryan is a nice guy, but it's not like he'll recognize the names and faces of the millions of people in the U.S.! But what has he done that openly states that we're just 'dirt'?

He's completely against LGBT rights (same-sex marriage, adoption, etc.), along with thinking that abortions shouldn't be allowed even in cases of rape.


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TemptingTomorrow
post Nov 7 2012, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE(Beyonder Way @ Nov 7 2012, 05:18 PM) *
I heard that Obama would make school in Summer, but I highly have doubt for that statement. I enjoyed watching those debates every couple of nights, and hearing what each president would do for our country. I like how Romney would lower gas prices a little, but also with takes. Anyone with over about 1 million dollars or makes a high salary, should pay a lot for taxes, but for people with lower money makings, they should pay the taxes they currently pay. At the final week, I laugh how desperate Obama is for votes, he lowered gas prices. I was watching Good Morning America this morning and I saw every state and which one Obama or Romney won that sates votes. Obama sadly won Massachusetts where I live, and then I saw, I think Hawaii, where Obama's hometown is, Obama won 93% votes, Romney 7%. He won a lot of states but not by a lot. Romney mostly one the middle states like Texas, Alaska, Alabama, but Obama won outer like D.C, California, Wisconsin, Ohio, etc. The only state undefined is Florida though.
I might be 12, but I like Romney.



Also to add. A lot of people think Romney is rude, but people say to Democrats, " Don't worry, 2012 will happen with Obama as president you Democrat. " Bullying each other for voting for a president they don't like.

I think that is just plain rude, who cares, Democrats are Democrats, Republicans are Republicans. That is just who they are, they shouldn't be treated differently. That is their choice to vote for Obama, or be the party of their choice, nothing wrong with it. Who knows, give Obama a chance Republicans, maybe things will go better.

This post has been edited by Beyonder Way: Nov 7 2012, 06:38 PM


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Manticore
post Nov 7 2012, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE(Mars Adept Enten @ Nov 7 2012, 11:15 AM) *
religious liberties of Christians get trampled upon


I think you mean Christians won't get special treatment any more. No one will be stopping you from worshipping however you want, you just won't be allowed to try to force everyone else in the country to follow the laws of YOUR religion regarding things like gay marriage and abortions.

I was so pleased to wake up this morning and find out that the biggest liar I've ever seen or heard of in politics didn't get elected. I'm honestly surprised it was as wide a margin as it was, considering the rather good evidence for vote flipping that's come out lately. I will be very interested to see how that works.

I am quite displeased that Ohioans rejected Issue 2 though, as that means republicans will still be allowed to gerrymander districts to try to help their side get votes.


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