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Religion Overgeneralization
Synx Itax
post Jun 11 2013, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE(The Shadow @ Jun 11 2013, 06:09 PM) *
QUOTE(Synx Itax @ Jun 11 2013, 04:39 PM) *
Well, I wasn't specifically referring to you when I said "educate yourself," but you really should educate yourself more. I'll say it and mean it. This is especially because you said that there's no difference between what the bible says and what science has proven -- this is a complete and utter joke. Talking snakes, giants, sea serpents that breathe fire, some guy who walks around doing magic (whose proof of existence isn't documented anywhere outside of any holy book), seas parting, whales that eat people, etc? Yeah, science eats all that up. Except it doesn't. Not to mention that the creation story, even if you don't take it literally, still has the events happening out of order. Science doesn't say that the Earth appeared before other stars, nor does it say that water appeared before land. No sense at all.

Finally, I'm not throwing out a possibility of a god or some kind of higher, supernatural being, but I won't believe in it until I have evidence. I certainly don't think the god of the bible exists (and wouldn't want such an egotistical tyrant to exist, either), though.


Let me make a few points to you about debating the Bible. If only to help you in the future.

1. If you are going to quote the bible, please, at least put where there are sea serpents that breathe fire. I know it's been a while since I've completely read the bible, but I don't recall that at all.

2. If you believe in evolution, how is it not possible for a serpent to have human vocal chords at first and therefore talk. Possibly later finding that it had no use for them and "evolving".

3. How is it also not possible under your theory to state that whales didn't go after bigger prey? Possibly whales had, at first, been a terror such as sharks and ate people. They then evolved finding no need to eat larger prey.

4. If you haven't been to other stars, how could you be sure that Earth hadn't appeared before them? Just because one star explodes doesn't mean it's been there longer than our sun.

5. If the universe started as a bunch of dust everywhere, how did it start spinning and forming stars? How would we know that the Sun was not he first star formed? To quote Newton, "An object at rest will stay at rest until acted upon by an outside force" therefore, the "dust", if you believe in that at all, would have had to be interferred upon by an outside force. Unless you want to throw out Newton.


I sincerely hope your entire post was tongue-in-cheek, because it seriously sounds like what people say to poke fun at those who actually take the bible or any other holy book seriously. But if it wasn't, here you go:

1. Job talks about the leviathan, and in verses 18-21, it says this:

18 His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
21 His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth.

2. So the serpent in the garden of Eden (and just the one!) needed to evolve vocal chords to speak? A likely story. No other animals speak in our own languages or have the ability to do anything beyond mimicking. Snakes absolutely have no need for such. Besides, that's all creation stuff, which has no compatibility with evolution.

3. Whales were never "terrors" that ate people -- their mouths do not have the structure for going after large prey. Mosasaurs, sure (though they were unrelated to whales), and basilosaurus, which was the ancestor to whales as we know them, did go after prey, but they were around LONG before people. My point about that wasn't even that Jonah was eaten, but that he was eaten and lived in the stomach of a whale.

4. We can find out the ages of stars, and our star is actually pretty young. Brown dwarfs, for instance, are FAR far older than our sun -- they are just about dead. Hypergiants such as XY Canis Majoris are way older, too.

5. It's called gravity, which is one of the four major natural forces. Gravity works on levels much greater than here on Earth, and tidal forces work in all parts of space (whether from gas clouds, which were numerous at the beginning of the formation of galaxies, or masses of dust). The big bang certainly had enough energy to send everything spinning and moving in all directions.

So yeah, pretty much everything you questioned has been answered by what we currently understand, and suggesting things such as the sun being older than other stars or snakes talking is simply laughable.


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Manticore
post Jun 11 2013, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE(The Shadow @ Jun 11 2013, 07:09 PM) *
Let me make a few points to you about debating the Bible. If only to help you in the future.

1. If you are going to quote the bible, please, at least put where there are sea serpents that breathe fire. I know it's been a while since I've completely read the bible, but I don't recall that at all.


Job 41, specifically verses 19-21. He's describing Leviathan.

QUOTE
2. If you believe in evolution, how is it not possible for a serpent to have human vocal chords at first and therefore talk. Possibly later finding that it had no use for them and "evolving".


I...I just want to call this possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read. Regardless, the issue would be less the vocal capacity for speech and more the mental faculties. I know we don't have a super great fossil record on snakes, but none of them have shown much intelligence, much less anything approaching the ability to understand language.

QUOTE
3. How is it also not possible under your theory to state that whales didn't go after bigger prey? Possibly whales had, at first, been a terror such as sharks and ate people. They then evolved finding no need to eat larger prey.


We already know that some whale relatives do eat prey, orcas? Regardless, as far as I'm aware, no whale has the capacity to swallow a man whole, just physically. Their throats aren't large enough.

QUOTE
4. If you haven't been to other stars, how could you be sure that Earth hadn't appeared before them? Just because one star explodes doesn't mean it's been there longer than our sun.


Here's a fantastic article about the ages of stars. That said, we do have the ability to tell a star's distance in light-years, and when a star is say, 5 billion light-years from us, we know we're seeing that star's light from 5 billion years ago. That is older than our planet, which is about 4.5 billion years old.

QUOTE
5. If the universe started as a bunch of dust everywhere, how did it start spinning and forming stars? How would we know that the Sun was not he first star formed? To quote Newton, "An object at rest will stay at rest until acted upon by an outside force" therefore, the "dust", if you believe in that at all, would have had to be interferred upon by an outside force. Unless you want to throw out Newton.


It didn't start as a bunch of "dust" everywhere. The Big Bang was a quantum event, you can't apply relative physics to it, as far as I'm aware. It's quite hard to explain, and I'm no cosmologist, but this is just a complete misinterpretation of the origin of the universe. If you have the time and inclination to learn something, Talk Origins has a fantastic article about the Big Bang Theory.


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jellybean chi
post Jun 11 2013, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE(Synx Itax @ Jun 11 2013, 02:39 PM) *
QUOTE(jellybean chi @ Jun 11 2013, 03:11 PM) *
likewise to what i've said in the beginning. i don't know you or your studies, but you definitely do not know me. i pour way too much of my time and thought into this kind of stuff already, so don't you think you can tell me that i need to educate myself. believe me, i've been doing that for three years straight.
i don't even know how this got so off topic. i think it's a kind of blessing, personally, on my part. sometimes i start to wonder and have doubt about the bible, but i remember that there isn't a difference between what the bible says and what science has proven.


Well, I wasn't specifically referring to you when I said "educate yourself," but you really should educate yourself more. I'll say it and mean it. This is especially because you said that there's no difference between what the bible says and what science has proven -- this is a complete and utter joke. Talking snakes, giants, sea serpents that breathe fire, some guy who walks around doing magic (whose proof of existence isn't documented anywhere outside of any holy book), seas parting, whales that eat people, etc? Yeah, science eats all that up. Except it doesn't. Not to mention that the creation story, even if you don't take it literally, still has the events happening out of order. Science doesn't say that the Earth appeared before other stars, nor does it say that water appeared before land. No sense at all.

You said in your first post in this thread that you believe in microevolution but not macroevolution and said something like "humans didn't come from apes." Well, if you believe in evolution, you believe in ALL evolution -- which includes humans coming from ape-like creatures that came from primates that came from small mammals that came from mammal-like reptiles that came from reptiles and so forth. Of course people didn't come from chimps, and evolution doesn't suggest an improvement -- merely change to adapt to an environment.

(By the way, "poof" is a perfect example of an onomatopoeia that illustrates my point. So yes, it would be a perfectly fine verb to use, and I did indeed choose it over "pop.")

Finally, I'm not throwing out a possibility of a god or some kind of higher, supernatural being, but I won't believe in it until I have evidence. I certainly don't think the god of the bible exists (and wouldn't want such an egotistical tyrant to exist, either), though.


sorry, you must have misunderstood what i said. that was my fault, most likely; i should have been more specific.
about the whole genesis thing. i don't even care right now.

look, i put a lot of time and research into this kind of thing. so please don't talk to me like you're my superior. please take into consideration that maybe i actually am admitting that i don't know all the answers. im certainly not gonna pretend i do. God is a very complicated topic. you can't just assume that i've got my head in the clouds or whatever.
i didn't mean to start a fight, but you were being kind of rude. no offense, i'm really sorry for saying that, but i had to, 'cuz it was bothering me and it would have eaten me up inside if i didn't try to stand up for myself.
but to be honest i don't even give a care what you people believe. i know what i believe, and i have as much good reason for believing what i believe that you have for believing what you believe. whoa, i never thought i'd use "believe" five times in one sentence... anyway. just please stop insulting each other, and all that. have a reasonable, professional debate with no judgmental or derogatory remarks because that's immature.
but since you guys are just insulting each other at this point, and the whole freaking purpose of this topic was to rant about over-generalization, please, like, find a post that's more, you know, relevant??? please??? this is still completely off topic ok i didn't mean to pluck anyone's nerves or anything
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Commander Wymsy
post Jun 11 2013, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE(jellybean chi @ Jun 11 2013, 08:04 PM) *
the whole freaking purpose of this topic was to rant about over-generalization

You posted it in the Debates forum. If your intent was merely to rant and not engage in a debate, you shouldn't have posted it here and instead to the Ranting Zone.


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Synx Itax
post Jun 11 2013, 10:22 PM
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QUOTE
i didn't mean to start a fight, but you were being kind of rude. no offense, i'm really sorry for saying that, but i had to, 'cuz it was bothering me and it would have eaten me up inside if i didn't try to stand up for myself.


Countering someone's points isn't being rude. I could have been *actually* rude, but I'm not low enough to stoop to things like name calling or whatever, and that's frowned upon anyway.

I just happen to know a lot about this subject, that's all. If someone says something blatantly incorrect (not necessarily referring to you), I'll correct them.

Blind faith is highly unappealing to me, but if it makes you happy, knock yourself out. I'm just gonna move on to other non-debate threads now, I think. Kinda tired of this. So have fun.

This post has been edited by Synx Itax: Jun 11 2013, 10:24 PM


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Lord Raven
post Jun 11 2013, 10:31 PM
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One real quick aside is that #5 on that dude's list up there, one of the laws of thermodynamics (i forget the order of these laws) says something about entropy increasing in a closed system. I guess if you assume our universe to be a closed system, then the statistical mechanics part will actually screw up a lot of stuff. Newton's Laws are only a model that works for everyday life, although you can apply certain aspects of them to quantum and/or statistical mechanics they generally do not hold in weird systems like, for instance, the big bang.

And jellybean chi brings up a good point. Let's not talk down on people's religion to make them sound stupid, and actually have decent debate. No matter what you believe, as much as you enjoy justifying why your belief is suddenly more logical, you should always have some degree of respect for the belief of others regardless of how much they disagree.

As for what I'm referring to, it's comments like these:

QUOTE
I...I just want to call this possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read.

QUOTE
A scientific theory is completely different than what you clearly think it is, and you might simply not be aware of what the true scientific definition of a theory is (if you've had a religious education, I am not surprised in the slightest).

QUOTE
(Also, if you believe in the day age thing and microevolution... just when did whatever that microevolved show up? Did they poof out of thin air? The things that evolved into variants of themselves or... people, who apparently didn't evolve at all... what's the timeframe for them in all this? Yeah, doesn't make sense to anyone who believes in real evolution.) You also can't start from a biblical point of view because everything you find out has to line up to it. If it doesn't, welp, must have made a mistake then, since we're only human and all. *rolls eyes*

QUOTE
I certainly don't think the god of the bible exists (and wouldn't want such an egotistical tyrant to exist, either), though.

QUOTE
The bible is not proof that what the bible says is true. Peer reviewed scientific studies (thousands upon thousands of them) are proof that evolution is true.


And countering someone's points in a very aggressive way comes off as rude, no matter how wrong someone is, not everyone has the ability to know whether or not they're wrong. (btw I said all of this before you posted your thing, but I'd like to remind everyone I'd much rather not have this devolving into an "undermine the other person's beliefs" thread, because when you bite people often times bite back and it's hard to read past the aggression).

This is not the attitude I want to see anywhere in this thread;

QUOTE
You posted it in the Debates forum. If your intent was merely to rant and not engage in a debate, you shouldn't have posted it here and instead to the Ranting Zone.


It's very difficult to debate with people who sprinkle their posts with denial of the other person's belief system. Someone brings up a point and another insinuates the point of almost directly stating that their viewpoint is objectively wrong and they should rewire their brain, because to be honest same argument works two ways regardless of what you faux scientist/faux intellectuals say or believe. It creates a slippery slope and, frankly, a shitstorm. Find another way to debate or get out of this thread.



Although, just to further educate someone on a point that was brought up over and over again, a theory in science is far different than what you'd think. It is definitely held in high regard, but in all honesty many of them are temporary and only really exist as a placeholder until some other theory swoops in and proves it wrong (read up on special relativity; didn't prove Newton wrong per say - but it definitely showed a need for new physics. Quantum Mechanics had exactly the same sort of history), or some other theory is just more all-encompassing and happens to predict everything without contradiction.


Finally, do not respond to this post in this thread unless it is relevant to the thread. Take it up with me in PM. I will gladly talk to you about it. I am not formally warning anyone, I am just afraid of a slippery slope with these sorts of threads.


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