[X] My Assistant

[Picanco]

If you haven't heard of the mosque opposition in America, then read this. While I shall outline a lot of it below, I highly recommend you read at least that article, if not older ones as well.


Outline of What's Happening.
This first came into the public eye when opposition against a mosque in New York flared up. The mosque was planned to be built on private property a few blocks away from Ground Zero, where the Twins Towers once stood. People likened this to a kamikaze monument being built at Pearl Harbor. The other side of the argument says that to deny someone the right to practice whatever religion they want is unconstitutional. Being afraid of our own fellow Americans also shows that the terrorists are winning. After all, the easiest way to tear down something is from the inside out, right? The anti-mosque parties also agree, saying that mosques are not a place of worship, but rather a place to nurture future terrorists right under our noses.

Another part of the article first linked brings out a smaller case happening in Temecula where a "Muslim community has been there for about 12 years and expanded to 150 families who have outgrown their makeshift worship space in a warehouse" and they want to expand, again on private property, they bought back in 2000. "Mr. Harmoush [the imam, or Islamic leader] said the Muslim families had contributed to the local food bank, sent truckloads of supplies to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, and participated in music nights and Thanksgiving events with the local interfaith council. 'We do all these activities and nobody notices,' he said. 'Now that we have to build our center, everybody jumps to make it an issue.'"

"Camie Ayash, a spokeswoman for the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, lamented that people were listening to what she called “total disinformation” on Islam. 'A lot of Muslims came to the U.S. because they respect the Constitution,' she said. 'There’s no conflict with the U.S. Constitution in Shariah law. If there were, Muslims wouldn’t be living here.'" The other side state how they "learned that in 20 years with the rate of the birth population, we will be overtaken by Islam, and their goal is to get people in Congress and the Supreme Court to see that Shariah is implemented."


My Stand.
Would you live somewhere that goes against every moral fiber of your being? Probably not. People come to America believing in the Constitution and the freedom it stands for. To yank that freedom out from under then is immoral in my opinion. I do not understand how people can use the Constitution to get their way, then forget it exists when they please. While it is true that many mosques, including the one in NY, have been cleared officially, it doesn't mean that the public won't continue to harass. This really bothers me. And not in the I'm PO'd kind of way, but in the I Can't Believe It's Come To This way.

I thought we were better than we were during WW2 where, after the attack on Pearl Harbor, we locked up Japanese Americans (or anyone who looked slightly Japanese) in internment camps. The camps ruined peoples lives, people who had no ill intent toward America. They were forced to drop their lives, belongings, family, and friends.

I'm not saying that this conflict will escalate to Islamic internment camps, not at all. I'm just wondering how we can never learn, and go against all that America stands for. If something like this was happening overseas, another country denying people the freedom to worship, we would go in and stop it. Why do we fall to hysteria over and over? Because we are human, would be the simple reason, but everyone in the world should try to better themselves, America included. It's a sad day when we forget this.

That is all.


The Debate.
If you fear the placement of mosques in your community, I would like to know why, and I will try my best to be considerate, as I hope everyone else who enters this thread will be as well. If you agree with me, and have something else to add, please do.

[Crystal Shards]

I think the whole argument is dumb. I'm not even going to lie and say I get why people are upset over it. Those that call Muslims terrorists are ignorant, because those guys were just terrorists. They may have been killing in the name of Allah or whatever, but let's not forget all the crimes people have committed in the name of God. Moderate Christians don't consider them Christians, and moderate Muslims don't consider the terrorists Muslim. So. Yeah.

[Reyo]

Personal stance: I don't give a shit. The only way I was directly effected by the attack was my 4th grade teacher wouldn't let us out for recess. I was half the country away when it happened, and even then my 9 year old brain had more childlike things to worry about, like hotweels, enjoying the awesomeness that was the Velociraptor, and thinking that girls had cooties.

Anyone with enough sense knows that the Muslims hoping to build the Mosque are, and were New Yorkers, just like the victims were, since birth. Yet suddenly they're all towlheaded terrorists? Jesus Christ...

Besides, and I'm sorry if this sounds offensive to any of the victims' families, but it's been 9 years. We need to stop pointing fingers at people and learn to forgive.

Hell, if it helps at all, imagine the jab to the ribs it'll be to the REAL terrorists if they hear news of Americans showing acceptance to the muslim community.

This post has been edited by Reyo: Aug 8 2010, 09:55 PM

[Tatzelwyrm]

Meh. Some relative sent up this retarded ass video not too long ago about this. That they build mosques when they conquer something, blah blah victory blah blah, I quit paying attention to it.



Pft, Reyo, you know they can't do that. People here live in the past too goddamn much.

[Picanco]

@Crystal Shards: I can't really see the other sides stance either. It's quite bluntly ignorance and prejudice that is making people react like this. I still want to hear the other side though, and will listen.

@Reyo: If not forgive, then at least not assume that every muslim is a terroist. My mom, who is Portuguese, even had a hard time after 9/11. People are too quick to just be... stupid. I wasn't really affected by it personally, but know people who were and know a couple even that would fall into the extremist category. They still rage sometimes.

@Tatzelwyrm: Never heard that before. Interesting.

[Tatzelwyrm]

Uh, iirc, it was some dude in England who did the video. I'd have to see if I could find it again, but I don't know.


Edit; This was the video sent to us.

This post has been edited by Tatzelwyrm: Aug 9 2010, 01:57 AM

[Kookie Monster]

If you fear the placement of mosques in your community, I would like to know why, and I will try my best to be considerate, as I hope everyone else who enters this thread will be as well. If you agree with me, and have something else to add, please do.

In response, to this question, I would say no. Why? Because I believe that Mosques as well as other places of worship teach the same thing, to be kind to all people, in general, don't harm anyone and they teach respect, etc, how to be a good human being. The only reason, people are afraid of mosques, is 9/11. May I just say there have been a lot of other bombings, however not always by muslims. I think only a few were muslims.

May I just post this image proofing this:

http://www.loonwatch.com/wp-content/upload...2-1024x1024.jpg

Attacks from 1980 to 2005 on the US.

People are in my opinon paranoid, that something will happen in mosques. However, it mainly falls in my opinons to the local community to select what person teaches young children the ways of islam, no not just islam but other religons as well. My point is that some people are scared of muslims because iirc all of them were muslims, those that commited the 9/11 offences. They do not stop to think about the other attacks the years before or after, which were not all done by muslims. I think that the media should highlight this and inform the people.

However, I personally think, that the mosque should be built. Why? Because it shows that we work together to prevail over terror, regardless of race, or religion.

This post has been edited by TyraniBoah: Aug 9 2010, 08:13 AM

[Annakyoyama358]

Frankly, i'd rather have a mosque nearby that the church across the street waking me up with it's bells every fucking sunday.

But personally, I think the idea of putting up a mosque 4 blocks from where islamic extremists blew up 3000 people in cold blood is a little insensitive on the part of the muslims. They could have easily built a mosque 15 blocks up or down, away from Ground Zero, and this problem wouldn't have happened. They shouldn't pretend like islamists had NOTHING to do with it, even if it's a small fraction of muslims.

IE: Christian extremists burn down a mosque with muslims inside in jerusalem. Most Christians have nothing to do with it, or the beliefs that caused it. But they they go try and build a church next to the burnt down building.
HOW DO YOU THINK the muslims would react?

Besides, why the fuck do they wanna build a mosque IN AN INDUSTRIAL part of the city? There arn't any synagogues or churches near ground zero, makeshift/temporary ones nothwistanding

Also, shoot anyone who claims to read the koran as a book of war and law, as well as anyone who does the same with the bible. Problem solved.

This post has been edited by Annakyoyama358: Aug 9 2010, 10:10 AM

[Crystal Shards]

May I just post this image proofing this:

http://www.loonwatch.com/wp-content/upload...2-1024x1024.jpg

Attacks from 1980 to 2005 on the US.

Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see the actual stats on that, rather than a pie graph from a site called "Loon Watch." Anyone can make a pie graph. It's not really proof if there's no source on it.

And Anna, the NYC Muslims are not the same Muslims as the terrorists. They are related in name only (in this case, the label Muslim, which may or may not actually apply to the terrorists, since many Muslims condemn terrorist attacks). The Muslims in NYC were among the victims of 9-11 as well, and well, this is America, not Iran. We have freedom of religion. Building a mosque near Ground Zero doesn't mean the Muslims won, whatever that means. It doesn't mean people have to go there. As an article I read asked, why do we have a problem with a mosque when there are numerous strip clubs nearby, one of which is only two blocks away? Do we call it The Ground Zero Strip Club?

Holding an entire religion responsible for its extremists makes absolutely no sense. If there can be no mosques near Ground Zero does that mean there should be no churches in countries devastated by European invasions in the name of Christ?

This post has been edited by Crystal Shards: Aug 9 2010, 12:05 PM

[Picanco]

Frankly, i'd rather have a mosque nearby that the church across the street waking me up with it's bells every fucking sunday.

But personally, I think the idea of putting up a mosque 4 blocks from where islamic extremists blew up 3000 people in cold blood is a little insensitive on the part of the muslims. They could have easily built a mosque 15 blocks up or down, away from Ground Zero, and this problem wouldn't have happened. They shouldn't pretend like islamists had NOTHING to do with it, even if it's a small fraction of muslims.

I found that first sentence extremely hilarious, despite, I think, having never heard church bells in my life.

Perhaps it is a little insensitive, but I think they also waited all these years for a reason. Plus, it's on private property, and you can't just dig up the property and switch it out for someone else's that is 15 blocks away. You have to work with what you have, yanno? I don't think they meant anything bad by this, and then people brought it waaay out of proportion. Perhaps they honestly just wanted a new place of worship?



@Tatzelwyrm: Watched some of the video, but couldn't get through it all because there's a high pitched noise in the background and migraines are no fun. But yes, it did seem to be the extremists trying to gain other extremists. You have to look at both sides in things like this, not just focus on the negative (but of course if you're trying to get people on your side you don't do that).



"Holding an entire religion responsible for its extremists makes absolutely no sense. If there can be no mosques near Ground Zero does that mean there should be no churches in countries devastated by European invasions in the name of Christ?" You know what makes less sense? European invasion in the name of Christ in the first place. I've never understood the Crusades and various other religious wars. Don't religions teach you to love thy neighbor and the golden rule of treating others the way you want to be treated? Maybe I read a different version of the Bible. Though I'll admit that I read very little in the first place, and got most of my morals from my parents. So, maybe it's in there somewhere that it's okay to prosecute everyone that has different way of life? Hm. I guess I just don't understand religion much at all. I do think that people should have the right to practice it whenever though. I also think that the more I ramble the less sense I make, so I'll shut up now.

As far as the pie graph, I think I'm with Crystal Shards, though it is interesting.


EDIT: "However, it mainly falls in my opinons to the local community to select what person teaches young children the ways of islam, no not just islam but other religons as well." VERY good point. In any religion it is possible for the wrong people to be teaching the ways of that religion and brainwash children into thinking, and doing, wrong. People, I believe, are at their most... 'tender' when they are at their place of worship. You open up to new ideas and to listen to whoever is leading the sermon (or whatever the word may be for other religions) and you accept what they say as truth. Or, even if you don't immediately accept it, it's still there in your subconscious.

This post has been edited by Picanco: Aug 9 2010, 04:46 PM

[Reyo]

They shouldn't pretend like islamists had NOTHING to do with it, even if it's a small fraction of muslims.

Who in the hell gave you the idea that building a mosque near Ground Zero = forgetting about 9/11?

[Crystal Shards]

You know what makes less sense? European invasion in the name of Christ in the first place. I've never understood the Crusades and various other religious wars. Don't religions teach you to love thy neighbor and the golden rule of treating others the way you want to be treated? Maybe I read a different version of the Bible. Though I'll admit that I read very little in the first place, and got most of my morals from my parents. So, maybe it's in there somewhere that it's okay to prosecute everyone that has different way of life? Hm. I guess I just don't understand religion much at all. I do think that people should have the right to practice it whenever though. I also think that the more I ramble the less sense I make, so I'll shut up now.

You'd be surprised at some of the stuff you find in the Bible. For example:

RAPE

• Deuteronomy 22:23-24 - If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
• Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
• Exodus 21:7-11 - When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

SLAVERY

• Exodus 21:20-21 - When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.
• Luke 12:47-48 - The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."

MURDER

• Deuteronomy 17:12 - Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.
• Exodus 21:15 - Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.
• Exodus 22:17 - You should not let a sorceress live.
• Isaiah 13:15-18 - Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.
• Isaiah 14:21 - Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.

That's not all of them, obviously, but it's a good start. Obviously rational, moderate people don't follow these tenets (even though they're all prophecies or direct orders from God) but it's not like the Bible has any less of a chance of making someone a religious zealot than the Qur'an. Many of the stories and people in the Bible also appear in the Qur'an, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of those statements show up in the Qur'an as well.

Point being, there are just as many crazy Christians as there are Muslims. Due to cultural differences, we may see them in the form of the Westboro Baptist Church or Andrea Yates as opposed to a dude with a bomb strapped to his chest, although I would bet money that there have been Christian terrorists as well.

This post has been edited by Crystal Shards: Aug 9 2010, 05:19 PM

[Annakyoyama358]

May I just post this image proofing this:

http://www.loonwatch.com/wp-content/upload...2-1024x1024.jpg

Attacks from 1980 to 2005 on the US.

Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see the actual stats on that, rather than a pie graph from a site called "Loon Watch." Anyone can make a pie graph. It's not really proof if there's no source on it.

And Anna, the NYC Muslims are not the same Muslims as the terrorists. They are related in name only (in this case, the label Muslim, which may or may not actually apply to the terrorists, since many Muslims condemn terrorist attacks). The Muslims in NYC were among the victims of 9-11 as well, and well, this is America, not Iran. We have freedom of religion. Building a mosque near Ground Zero doesn't mean the Muslims won, whatever that means. It doesn't mean people have to go there. As an article I read asked, why do we have a problem with a mosque when there are numerous strip clubs nearby, one of which is only two blocks away? Do we call it The Ground Zero Strip Club?

Holding an entire religion responsible for its extremists makes absolutely no sense. If there can be no mosques near Ground Zero does that mean there should be no churches in countries devastated by European invasions in the name of Christ?

I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to build there. I'm saying this was a predictable response and they didn't really have to push anyones buttons.

They shouldn't pretend like islamists had NOTHING to do with it, even if it's a small fraction of muslims.

Who in the hell gave you the idea that building a mosque near Ground Zero = forgetting about 9/11?

I didn't say forgetting. In fact I said more the oppsite. People remember hte overarching facts of ground Zero, and therefore are scared of radical muslims. I'm not saying it makes sense or is right, jsut that it IS.



And trust me, christian terrorists are definately as common as muslim ones. We just call them 'terrorists' in general.
I'M LOOKING AT YOU Oklahoma City bomber

[Reyo]

I didn't say forgetting. In fact I said more the oppsite. People remember hte overarching facts of ground Zero, and therefore are scared of radical muslims. I'm not saying it makes sense or is right, jsut that it IS.

Then what's the issue exactly? I know that 9/11 resulted in the death of thousands of American citizens...9 years ago, and I can see how people would think that building a Mosque near Ground Zero is insensitive...if this was all happening 8 years ago.

People need to learn how to let things ago while still holding on to the memory of what happened. Anyone in their right mind can see how insensitive the idea is, but they can also see how childish it is to start dictating how a group of people acts for something they didn't even do nearly a decade ago.

Though I gotta add that you sound like you're playing devil's advocate more than anything else.

[Annakyoyama358]

I didn't say forgetting. In fact I said more the oppsite. People remember hte overarching facts of ground Zero, and therefore are scared of radical muslims. I'm not saying it makes sense or is right, jsut that it IS.

Then what's the issue exactly? I know that 9/11 resulted in the death of thousands of American citizens...9 years ago, and I can see how people would think that building a Mosque near Ground Zero is insensitive...if this was all happening 8 years ago.

People need to learn how to let things ago while still holding on to the memory of what happened. Anyone in their right mind can see how insensitive the idea is, but they can also see how childish it is to start dictating how a group of people acts for something they didn't even do nearly a decade ago.

Though I gotta add that you sound like you're playing devil's advocate more than anything else.

I'm trying to anyways

And a decade isn't a long time. I know plenty of geezers that still think all japs are evil. That was what, 60 years ago? peoples memories arn't always so fickle that things can be let go

[Reyo]

I'm trying to anyways

And a decade isn't a long time. I know plenty of geezers that still think all japs are evil. That was what, 60 years ago? peoples memories arn't always so fickle that things can be let go

Caaaaalled iiiit!

But yeah, I know that what the muslims did was "evil" but that doesn't make the action of hating them all any less descriminatory. I know that WWII vets tend to be less than understanding, given they fought in a WAR, but that doesn't make it right for everyone to start generalizing. I believe grown ups call it "knowing better" when children pull the "but he did it first" excuse.

[Annakyoyama358]

I'm trying to anyways

And a decade isn't a long time. I know plenty of geezers that still think all japs are evil. That was what, 60 years ago? peoples memories arn't always so fickle that things can be let go

Caaaaalled iiiit!

But yeah, I know that what the muslims did was "evil" but that doesn't make the action of hating them all any less descriminatory. I know that WWII vets tend to be less than understanding, given they fought in a WAR, but that doesn't make it right for everyone to start generalizing. I believe grown ups call it "knowing better" when children pull the "but he did it first" excuse.

Pointing out, we're at war too. Have been for 10 years.

[Sergeant Freak]

A few things kind of bug me about this debate. First of all, why are people upset about this? All that they wish to do is take an existing building, take it down and build a Mosque in it's place? Isn't that what it was being used for in the fist place? If folks are upset about an Islamic Center being built there, they should move all the churches that are around it as well. I did Google Maps search on the area. There are more than ten different Christian/Catholic churches within spitting distance.

For a country that prides itself on freedom of religion, it sure does seem that we have put our foot into our mouth once more. We preach tolerance and acceptance to our children, yet the verbal diarrhea seems to spill out with the opposite message.

Kind of makes me ashamed of the fact that I stand to protect their rights to say these things as a soldier.

[Reyo]

I'm trying to anyways

And a decade isn't a long time. I know plenty of geezers that still think all japs are evil. That was what, 60 years ago? peoples memories arn't always so fickle that things can be let go

Caaaaalled iiiit!

But yeah, I know that what the muslims did was "evil" but that doesn't make the action of hating them all any less descriminatory. I know that WWII vets tend to be less than understanding, given they fought in a WAR, but that doesn't make it right for everyone to start generalizing. I believe grown ups call it "knowing better" when children pull the "but he did it first" excuse.

Pointing out, we're at war too. Have been for 10 years.

I don't care much for the war.

I support the troops, I support the hell out of the troops. My parents were in the military (just to get all that out of the way before the next part), but the war was drawn on way longer than it should have been. It's gotton to the part where we've screwed things up bad enough that it'd piss them off more if we try to leave where as a few years ago they would have loved the idea. When the war first started, I didn't care. For one thing, I was in middle school. All I cared about was Dinosaurs and Recess. Another thing is I knew that wars happen. When I grew older and started paying attention, I started thinking "Yeah it would have probably been a good idea to end this after just a few years."

As far as I'm concerned, the war should have ended well before the mosque was even considered. The war has very little influence on my opinion on the matter.

This post has been edited by Reyo: Aug 15 2010, 04:07 AM

[Crystal Shards]

I'd say something, but really, the image says it all.

EDIT: By the way, that's from this: http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared..._rest-of-am.php

EDIT: And more articles of interest:

http://www.theawl.com/2010/08/wheres-the-g...experts-explain
http://www.blogher.com/park-51-if-you-buil...they-will-learn

This post has been edited by Crystal Shards: Aug 17 2010, 04:08 PM