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Atheists
FancyGranola
post Nov 22 2010, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE(Reyo @ Nov 21 2010, 09:03 PM) *
What of the belief system where I keep the possibility in mind...because he just might exist?


I thought we were talking about Atheists not Agnostics.


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Reyo
post Nov 22 2010, 12:33 AM
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QUOTE(FancyGranola @ Nov 22 2010, 01:32 AM) *
QUOTE(Reyo @ Nov 21 2010, 09:03 PM) *
What of the belief system where I keep the possibility in mind...because he just might exist?


I thought we were talking about Atheists not Agnostics.


We are, but it seems like a lot of the comments have become an attempt to convert people to other religions. Shame that I've had to do it myself to try and respond to the other people who are doing it.

This post has been edited by Reyo: Nov 22 2010, 12:34 AM


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FancyGranola
post Nov 22 2010, 12:54 AM
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QUOTE(Reyo @ Nov 21 2010, 09:33 PM) *
We are, but it seems like a lot of the comments have become an attempt to convert people to other religions. Shame that I've had to do it myself to try and respond to the other people who are doing it.


An attempt to convert... That's funny. The guilt is placed on both sides.


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Ryuko
post Nov 22 2010, 05:52 AM
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QUOTE(Yumie @ Nov 22 2010, 01:41 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 21 2010, 06:34 AM) *
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 21 2010, 02:26 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 20 2010, 01:43 AM) *
Everyone is evil inside

It's impossible to know this unless one knows the thoughts and feelings of every single person.

The same applies to almost every "everyone is x ".

Can you prove that everyone is truly good?

I dont think it is necessarily saying that everyone is necessarily good, just that not everyone is not necessarily evil. I don't think I'm evil, as I do make attempts to help others as well as the environment (which any religion/belief could do). Though, I am not completely good, as I have done selfish things and have a bad habit for hogging large amounts of candy. But, hogging candy isn't exactly evil. It's not like I'm thinking "Oh! Now those kids in Africa won't be happy, as I have all of their candy!" Other people do good things as well: its not like they have this flawless facade they are able to put on and trick anyone.
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 22 2010, 02:42 AM) *
What Yumie said. Not everyone is good, but not everyone is evil. Also, not everyone is either.

Everyone has a bad personality trait or two, but that doesn't make someone evil.

Well, how would you two describe someone as being 'evil' or 'bad'?


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And so is the Golden City blackened with each step you take in my Hall. Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting.
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PinkiePie
post Nov 22 2010, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE(PikaDiety @ Nov 21 2010, 10:29 PM) *
That's why I'm not Christian. I hate the reward system. It makes God look like a big time company that's always doing those buy one, get one free things. "Believe in me or burn for eternity!" Seriously? If that's how God is, I'd rather be an atheist. (Even though I'm pagan.xD) If the only way to get to heaven is believe in god, then he isn't a loving god. Because someone can be an atheist and a wonderful person. But because of the fact the fact that they don't believe in god, they'll go to hell? While someone can be a horrible, cruel, heartless person and go to heaven just because they believe in god? I wouldn't want a god like that.

(http://isavedmegaton.tumblr.com/post/1481229229/in-response-to-the-concept-that-morality-and-god) I thought that was relevant to what I was saying.

Also, I don't think the Bible is a reliable source at all. Mainly because it was written by men, no matter how you spin it. God never actually wrote the Bible. He never came down to earth to write the Bible. Even if he did, it's been translated so many times it's lost it's original perfect meaning. And since men are flawed and no man is perfect, you can't say the Bible is perfect, because it was written by men.
And I could bring up all of it's contradictions, but I need to go to bed, and I don't want to get the link at the moment.


In response to LiteSpeed, Genesis, the book detailing the 2-3000 years before Moses, was not the first book written. It's just the first book in chronological order. Job was the first written. So, obviously, Adam and Eve didn't write Genesis, because their were dead. God inspired Moses to write the first five books of the Bible, or so we believe. I can argue the Bible is a reliable source, because it was written by God-inspired men; I picture God in a corner narrating what to write down to some scholar.


Also, did you know they found the oldest Bible in existence? They compared the text to a 2009 Bible. 99.9% accurate.


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BarkingChaos
post Nov 22 2010, 11:40 AM
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They may have been God-inspired men, but they were still human. And humans still tend to either "add" things or exaggerate. I'm not saying everything in the bible is false, I'm just saying that its human nature to exaggerate things.

But thats just me. I respect your opinion

I do believe the accuracy thing though. The bible is such a sacred book that every person who wrote it and translated it would make sure that it stayed accurate.

This post has been edited by BarkAtTheMoon: Nov 22 2010, 11:46 AM
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Reyo
post Nov 22 2010, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE(FancyGranola @ Nov 22 2010, 01:54 AM) *
QUOTE(Reyo @ Nov 21 2010, 09:33 PM) *
We are, but it seems like a lot of the comments have become an attempt to convert people to other religions. Shame that I've had to do it myself to try and respond to the other people who are doing it.


An attempt to convert... That's funny. The guilt is placed on both sides.


You saying that brings my hope for humanity back into existence. clap.gif

QUOTE(Vincent Lance @ Nov 22 2010, 11:02 AM) *
In response to LiteSpeed, Genesis, the book detailing the 2-3000 years before Moses, was not the first book written. It's just the first book in chronological order. Job was the first written. So, obviously, Adam and Eve didn't write Genesis, because their were dead. God inspired Moses to write the first five books of the Bible, or so we believe. I can argue the Bible is a reliable source, because it was written by God-inspired men; I picture God in a corner narrating what to write down to some scholar.


Also, did you know they found the oldest Bible in existence? They compared the text to a 2009 Bible. 99.9% accurate.


There's one big problem with the bible, though. Either it's 100% accurate to the oldest bible in existence, and we're basing our morals on a society that was scientifically and morally ignorant (as in women were less than dirt), or it isn't a recollection of that time period, in which case it isn't an accurate representation of the word of God. I have no quarrel with the Bible as a literary source, but when it comes to scientific understanding, moral values, and historical recollection...that's when it starts to fade. It's also one of the reasons no one brings up the bible anymore in the Evolution v God thread.

This post has been edited by Reyo: Nov 22 2010, 11:50 AM


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space...spacespace...wanna go to space...I'm in space...are we in space...I wanna into space, are you space? Uh oh, space police, stay cool. Space..space..space space..ba ba, ba, ba, bababa, ba, ba space. Dad, are you space? Yes, now we can be a family again. Space space...need...space...need a rocket...wanna buy a rocket? It's for space...need one...buy one from space store...space store...space...space...space supplies...space ship...space rocket...rocket..space...soup...space soup...from space cafe...space waiter there's a space fly in my space soup...spacespace....must...


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Reyo
post Nov 22 2010, 11:49 AM
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This post has been edited by Reyo: Nov 22 2010, 11:50 AM


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space...spacespace...wanna go to space...I'm in space...are we in space...I wanna into space, are you space? Uh oh, space police, stay cool. Space..space..space space..ba ba, ba, ba, bababa, ba, ba space. Dad, are you space? Yes, now we can be a family again. Space space...need...space...need a rocket...wanna buy a rocket? It's for space...need one...buy one from space store...space store...space...space...space supplies...space ship...space rocket...rocket..space...soup...space soup...from space cafe...space waiter there's a space fly in my space soup...spacespace....must...


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DJ Majja Kool
post Nov 22 2010, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 22 2010, 05:52 AM) *
QUOTE(Yumie @ Nov 22 2010, 01:41 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 21 2010, 06:34 AM) *
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 21 2010, 02:26 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 20 2010, 01:43 AM) *
Everyone is evil inside

It's impossible to know this unless one knows the thoughts and feelings of every single person.

The same applies to almost every "everyone is x ".

Can you prove that everyone is truly good?

I dont think it is necessarily saying that everyone is necessarily good, just that not everyone is not necessarily evil. I don't think I'm evil, as I do make attempts to help others as well as the environment (which any religion/belief could do). Though, I am not completely good, as I have done selfish things and have a bad habit for hogging large amounts of candy. But, hogging candy isn't exactly evil. It's not like I'm thinking "Oh! Now those kids in Africa won't be happy, as I have all of their candy!" Other people do good things as well: its not like they have this flawless facade they are able to put on and trick anyone.
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 22 2010, 02:42 AM) *
What Yumie said. Not everyone is good, but not everyone is evil. Also, not everyone is either.

Everyone has a bad personality trait or two, but that doesn't make someone evil.

Well, how would you two describe someone as being 'evil' or 'bad'?

The first thing that comes to mind is someone who beats up, tortures, murders, rapes, kidnaps, etc., people to watch them go through physical, mental, emotional, sexual, etc. pain. It doesn't have to be someone who does that to people, though. It could also be someone who does so to other animals.

The second thing that comes to mind is someone who frames people for major things for the sake of money or whatever it is they're after. Evan Chandler using his son to frame Michael Jackson because he wanted money comes to mind.

People who play with others' emotions by pretending to be their friend and betraying them later might be evil or simply assholes, depending on how strong of a relationship the traitor built with the person. Or perhaps they're all evil.

There are probably a few other things that I'd consider evil, but those are the main ones that come to mind. Evil is a strong word that I generally reserve for the absolute worst people.

This post has been edited by StrawberryLoveIntervention: Nov 22 2010, 03:11 PM


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Ryuko
post Nov 22 2010, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 23 2010, 07:04 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 22 2010, 05:52 AM) *
QUOTE(Yumie @ Nov 22 2010, 01:41 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 21 2010, 06:34 AM) *
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 21 2010, 02:26 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 20 2010, 01:43 AM) *
Everyone is evil inside

It's impossible to know this unless one knows the thoughts and feelings of every single person.

The same applies to almost every "everyone is x ".

Can you prove that everyone is truly good?

I dont think it is necessarily saying that everyone is necessarily good, just that not everyone is not necessarily evil. I don't think I'm evil, as I do make attempts to help others as well as the environment (which any religion/belief could do). Though, I am not completely good, as I have done selfish things and have a bad habit for hogging large amounts of candy. But, hogging candy isn't exactly evil. It's not like I'm thinking "Oh! Now those kids in Africa won't be happy, as I have all of their candy!" Other people do good things as well: its not like they have this flawless facade they are able to put on and trick anyone.
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 22 2010, 02:42 AM) *
What Yumie said. Not everyone is good, but not everyone is evil. Also, not everyone is either.

Everyone has a bad personality trait or two, but that doesn't make someone evil.

Well, how would you two describe someone as being 'evil' or 'bad'?

The first thing that comes to mind is someone who beats up, tortures, murders, rapes, kidnaps, etc., people to watch them go through physical, mental, emotional, sexual, etc. pain. It doesn't have to be someone who does that to people, though. It could also be someone who does so to other animals.

The second thing that comes to mind is someone who frames people for major things for the sake of money or whatever it is they're after. Evan Chandler using his son to frame Michael Jackson because he wanted money comes to mind.

People who play with others' emotions by pretending to be their friend and betraying them later might be evil or simply assholes, depending on how strong of a relationship the traitor built with the person. Or perhaps they're all evil.

There are probably a few other things that I'd consider evil, but those are the main ones that come to mind. Evil is a strong word that I generally reserve for the absolute worst people.

That's a fair point, but what you say to a person breaking the law? Speeding for example. It's fine if you speed a couple of times by accident, but what if a person has been speeding on purpose, putting lives at risk, for simply getting to a destination quicker?


--------------------

"Violence, Lust and Betrayal"
And so is the Golden City blackened with each step you take in my Hall. Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting.
You have brought Sin to Heaven and doom upon all the world.
-Threnodies 8:13


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DJ Majja Kool
post Nov 22 2010, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 22 2010, 04:00 PM) *
That's a fair point, but what you say to a person breaking the law? Speeding for example. It's fine if you speed a couple of times by accident, but what if a person has been speeding on purpose, putting lives at risk, for simply getting to a destination quicker?

I think most people who speed a lot don't really think of themselves in such an incident, in which case I'd just think them ignorant and undeserving of a driver's license.

If they've considered that they're putting others' lives at danger and still do it, though, yes, I'd consider them evil.

This post has been edited by StrawberryLoveIntervention: Nov 23 2010, 08:25 PM


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Ryuko
post Nov 22 2010, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 23 2010, 08:18 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 22 2010, 04:00 PM) *
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 23 2010, 07:04 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 22 2010, 05:52 AM) *
QUOTE(Yumie @ Nov 22 2010, 01:41 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 21 2010, 06:34 AM) *
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 21 2010, 02:26 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 20 2010, 01:43 AM) *
Everyone is evil inside

It's impossible to know this unless one knows the thoughts and feelings of every single person.

The same applies to almost every "everyone is x ".

Can you prove that everyone is truly good?

I dont think it is necessarily saying that everyone is necessarily good, just that not everyone is not necessarily evil. I don't think I'm evil, as I do make attempts to help others as well as the environment (which any religion/belief could do). Though, I am not completely good, as I have done selfish things and have a bad habit for hogging large amounts of candy. But, hogging candy isn't exactly evil. It's not like I'm thinking "Oh! Now those kids in Africa won't be happy, as I have all of their candy!" Other people do good things as well: its not like they have this flawless facade they are able to put on and trick anyone.
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 22 2010, 02:42 AM) *
What Yumie said. Not everyone is good, but not everyone is evil. Also, not everyone is either.

Everyone has a bad personality trait or two, but that doesn't make someone evil.

Well, how would you two describe someone as being 'evil' or 'bad'?

The first thing that comes to mind is someone who beats up, tortures, murders, rapes, kidnaps, etc., people to watch them go through physical, mental, emotional, sexual, etc. pain. It doesn't have to be someone who does that to people, though. It could also be someone who does so to other animals.

The second thing that comes to mind is someone who frames people for major things for the sake of money or whatever it is they're after. Evan Chandler using his son to frame Michael Jackson because he wanted money comes to mind.

People who play with others' emotions by pretending to be their friend and betraying them later might be evil or simply assholes, depending on how strong of a relationship the traitor built with the person. Or perhaps they're all evil.

There are probably a few other things that I'd consider evil, but those are the main ones that come to mind. Evil is a strong word that I generally reserve for the absolute worst people.

That's a fair point, but what you say to a person breaking the law? Speeding for example. It's fine if you speed a couple of times by accident, but what if a person has been speeding on purpose, putting lives at risk, for simply getting to a destination quicker?

I think most people who speed a lot don't really think of themselves in such an incident, in which case I'd just think them ignorant and undeserving of a driver's license.

If they've considered that they're putting others' lives at danger and still do it, though, yes, I'd consider them evil.

Good, but would you also say that anyone who breaks the law is evil?


--------------------

"Violence, Lust and Betrayal"
And so is the Golden City blackened with each step you take in my Hall. Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting.
You have brought Sin to Heaven and doom upon all the world.
-Threnodies 8:13


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PikaDiety
post Nov 22 2010, 04:37 PM
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Just so the people responding to me know: I do have faith. I have very strong faith in my gods. This is a debate about atheists, but is turning in to one about the Christian God. So I thought I should put in my opinion.

I believe in a heaven, and I believe I'm going to that heaven. But I don't think that people who believe differently are going to hell. That's honestly stupid. I don't choose to not believe in it because I don't like it, I choose to not believe it because I think the entire idea behind it is false. So, it really isn't a choice. I think it's false, therefore I don't believe. I don't choose to believe the moon isn't made of cheese, I know it isn't.
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DJ Majja Kool
post Nov 22 2010, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 22 2010, 04:25 PM) *
Good, but would you also say that anyone who breaks the law is evil?

It largely depends on what the law is and/or why they broke it.

That question actually reminds me of a hypothetical situation that my psychology teacher described last year. I unfortunately don't remember all of it, but I'll try my best.

There was a husband and wife. The wife was sick, I think to the point where she would die if not treated in time. The husband went to get the medicine she needed, but the doctor wouldn't give it to him because he didn't have enough money, even though he explained what his wife was going through. Eventually, he took it anyway.

I wouldn't call the husband evil, since his wife needed the medicine in order to continue living (if I remember correctly). He didn't steal it just for the sake of stealing.

This post has been edited by StrawberryLoveIntervention: Nov 23 2010, 08:26 PM


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post Nov 22 2010, 04:55 PM
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i'm more of an apathetic than an atheist, because i honestly don't care about religion lol, but i guess that still makes me an atheist so..


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Kira Wolf
post Nov 22 2010, 06:18 PM
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Honestly, in my opinion I have nothing against atheists, that is if they have nothing against me. I am a christian so...yeah. If a atheist has sometihng against me, I have something against me.
Pretty simple and not compelx, really. :/


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post Nov 23 2010, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 23 2010, 08:55 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 22 2010, 04:25 PM) *
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 23 2010, 08:18 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 22 2010, 04:00 PM) *
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 23 2010, 07:04 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 22 2010, 05:52 AM) *
QUOTE(Yumie @ Nov 22 2010, 01:41 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 21 2010, 06:34 AM) *
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 21 2010, 02:26 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 20 2010, 01:43 AM) *
Everyone is evil inside

It's impossible to know this unless one knows the thoughts and feelings of every single person.

The same applies to almost every "everyone is x ".

Can you prove that everyone is truly good?

I dont think it is necessarily saying that everyone is necessarily good, just that not everyone is not necessarily evil. I don't think I'm evil, as I do make attempts to help others as well as the environment (which any religion/belief could do). Though, I am not completely good, as I have done selfish things and have a bad habit for hogging large amounts of candy. But, hogging candy isn't exactly evil. It's not like I'm thinking "Oh! Now those kids in Africa won't be happy, as I have all of their candy!" Other people do good things as well: its not like they have this flawless facade they are able to put on and trick anyone.
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 22 2010, 02:42 AM) *
What Yumie said. Not everyone is good, but not everyone is evil. Also, not everyone is either.

Everyone has a bad personality trait or two, but that doesn't make someone evil.

Well, how would you two describe someone as being 'evil' or 'bad'?

The first thing that comes to mind is someone who beats up, tortures, murders, rapes, kidnaps, etc., people to watch them go through physical, mental, emotional, sexual, etc. pain. It doesn't have to be someone who does that to people, though. It could also be someone who does so to other animals.

The second thing that comes to mind is someone who frames people for major things for the sake of money or whatever it is they're after. Evan Chandler using his son to frame Michael Jackson because he wanted money comes to mind.

People who play with others' emotions by pretending to be their friend and betraying them later might be evil or simply assholes, depending on how strong of a relationship the traitor built with the person. Or perhaps they're all evil.

There are probably a few other things that I'd consider evil, but those are the main ones that come to mind. Evil is a strong word that I generally reserve for the absolute worst people.

That's a fair point, but what you say to a person breaking the law? Speeding for example. It's fine if you speed a couple of times by accident, but what if a person has been speeding on purpose, putting lives at risk, for simply getting to a destination quicker?

I think most people who speed a lot don't really think of themselves in such an incident, in which case I'd just think them ignorant and undeserving of a driver's license.

If they've considered that they're putting others' lives at danger and still do it, though, yes, I'd consider them evil.

Good, but would you also say that anyone who breaks the law is evil?

It largely depends on what the law is and/or why they broke it.

That question actually reminds me of a hypothetical situation that my psychology teacher described last year. I unfortunately don't remember all of it, but I'll try my best.

There was a husband and wife. The wife was sick, I think to the point where she would die if not treated in time. The husband went to get the medicine she needed, but the doctor wouldn't give it to him because he didn't have enough money, even though he explained what his wife was going through. Eventually, he took it anyway.

I wouldn't call the husband evil, since his wife needed the medicine in order to continue living (if I remember correctly). He didn't steal it just for the sake of stealing.


But what about the convicts in London, 1800's. who simply stole bread to feed their families? They did it for a good cause, but broke the law doing so. They had committed a crime.


--------------------

"Violence, Lust and Betrayal"
And so is the Golden City blackened with each step you take in my Hall. Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting.
You have brought Sin to Heaven and doom upon all the world.
-Threnodies 8:13


signature image too large; removed

~ Raven
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FancyGranola
post Nov 23 2010, 03:02 AM
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QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 22 2010, 11:14 PM) *

But what about the convicts in London, 1800's. who simply stole bread to feed their families? They did it for a good cause, but broke the law doing so. They had committed a crime.


So are you for "Atheism is evil" or "Atheism is not evil?" I'm at a loss here.

Stop asking stupid questions. Debate, don't ask a stream of useless questions that again do not really contribute to a side. Get something more original.

And you just now implied that religion is a crime or is evil. Please explain.


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post Nov 23 2010, 04:20 AM
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QUOTE(FancyGranola @ Nov 23 2010, 07:02 PM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 22 2010, 11:14 PM) *

But what about the convicts in London, 1800's. who simply stole bread to feed their families? They did it for a good cause, but broke the law doing so. They had committed a crime.


So are you for "Atheism is evil" or "Atheism is not evil?" I'm at a loss here.

Stop asking stupid questions. Debate, don't ask a stream of useless questions that again do not really contribute to a side. Get something more original.

And you just now implied that religion is a crime or is evil. Please explain.

What I'm trying to do, is getting a final definition of the word. And they're not stupid questions, it's called using logic to find an answer.

And I'm not implying that religion is evil, I'm proving a point that everyone in general is.
And what part did I, exactly?


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post Nov 23 2010, 06:05 AM
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QUOTE(PikaDiety @ Nov 22 2010, 04:37 PM) *
This is a debate about atheists, but is turning in to one about the Christian God. So I thought I should put in my opinion.


Thank you. This is the point I was trying to make earlier.

@Reyo, this is what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to add the the conversation going on at that time but merely commenting that several arguments didn't make sense because they were based on only one religion.

Example: On page 3, I saw people who were rejecting God because of a "reward" system. That's dumb, because not all religions have such things. As I said in another post, in Judaism, there is no hell. You don't do the right thing on fear of punishment or hope of reward; you do the right thing because it's your responsibility.

To anyone who doesn't like the "reward system," what do you make of that?



@CrowFeather: You used the examples of speeding and stealing to feed your family to make your point.

But what if the speeder was an ambulance trying to get to a hospital quickly? I know of a case from about a year ago where a woman was killed in an accident by a speeding ambulance. I can try to find the citation if you want. Also, as someone who takes an interstate highway to get to school and back 5 days a week, I speed frequently. However, the only time I've ever caused an accident (no one was hurt, btw) I was going under the speed limit.

In the case of someone stealing food to feed their family: what if the person who was stolen from was no longer able to feed their family?

The adverse effects that could result in these cases are absolutely not intended so how exactly does breaking the law prove that people are inherently evil?


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