[X] My Assistant

[Reyo]

I was going to post this in the "Legendary Genders" thread but it turned out to be a long post. I thought it might potentially start another debate, and I didn't wanna hijack the thread so here it is.

I'm happy with the legends having no genders.

Pokemon already does a lot of gender stuff that feels stereotypical and helps with gender barriers.

Female pokemon are usually made to look "weaker" (smaller horns, etc.) Anything pink is either 100% or majority female.
Chansey is 100% female. It's pink and it's a healer/caretaker kind of pokemon and the standard nurse pokemon.
Kanghaskhan is 100% female, because it takes care of babies.

Most of the fighting pokemon are majority/100% male.
Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan are 100% male and Lucario has a majority male percentage.



You could say,"Well, they're basing it on real life. That's the way it is in nature!"

Yeah, but it's a video game. It doesn't have to be that way. If I want real life I'm not going to play a video game, that kinda defeats the point of a video game, IMO. Besides, if that's true why doesn't pokemon imitate animals when it works in reverse?

In hyena society females are overwhelmingly dominant. Even the lowliest female outranks the highest ranking male. but Mightyena has no gender differences.

In the world of Raptors (ie Birds of Prey) the females are bigger and more aggressive, sometimes they're twice or three times the size of males. But none of the bird pokemon reflect that. You could argue that Swellow doesn't count as a bird of prey, or Pidgeot (though I think it is) but Staraptor definitely is. Thats why it has raptor in it's name. But there are no gender differences and they're all 50/50 gender ratio.

Why can't Chansey or Kanghaskhan be male too? Males can take care of babies. Men can be nurses, caretakers and healers.

Believe it or not, some men like pink too. I know one.

And girls can be fighters, so why did they make Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan 100% male?


I'm not even going to say anything about female Wobbuffet's lipstick. Good god it burns....

Don't get me wrong here, this is a friendly debate. I'm not going to go on some kind of super feminist boycott of the games until they change it. I just wondered if anyone else has noticed it, or if anyone else thinks it's a little stereotypical that way?

Discuss.

I highly doubt Nintendo was doing that to make women seem "inferior". It's just like the lack of black people in the games/anime. The producers went by what they observed, and if they observed that the male animals were the ones who fought and the females were the caretakers/mothers, then that's how they're going to write the game. The point of defeating sexism and racism isn't to start making people think "Well if we do this, who might we offend and how can we avoid that?", it's the exact opposite. It's being able to do whatever makes you happy (within reason) knowing that what you're doing isn't going to offend anyone.

TLDR: Nintendo isn't trying to make women inferior with the use of pokemon games. You give them too little credit. They have hypertonic sooperlazors to do that.

EDIT: One thing I will say, though, is that in Nintendo's attempt to differenciate the genders of pokemon, the whole thing has become rathor silly. Simplicity is often the best thing for solving an issue.

This post has been edited by Reyo: Sep 8 2009, 03:22 PM

[Kai Reddtail]

I never said they were trying to make women seem inferior. I'm saying they are perpetuating gender stereotypes (ie girls are supposed to take care of babies, boys aren't supposed to like pink, etc.) That's bad for everyone, woman or man. Gender is a terrible and unnecessary burden society puts on us all, and pokemon is doing it too.

[Crater]

I never said they were trying to make women seem inferior. I'm saying they are perpetuating gender stereotypes (ie girls are supposed to take care of babies, boys aren't supposed to like pink, etc.) That's bad for everyone, woman or man. Gender is a terrible and unnecessary burden society puts on us all, and pokemon is doing it too.

Sure, Jigglypuff and Clefairy are mostly female, but what about Lickitung and Shellos and Slowpoke and Porygon and Hoppip and Exeggcute?

[Kai Reddtail]

I never said they were trying to make women seem inferior. I'm saying they are perpetuating gender stereotypes (ie girls are supposed to take care of babies, boys aren't supposed to like pink, etc.) That's bad for everyone, woman or man. Gender is a terrible and unnecessary burden society puts on us all, and pokemon is doing it too.

Sure, Jigglypuff and Clefairy are mostly female, but what about Lickitung and Shellos and Slowpoke and Porygon and Hoppip and Exeggcute?

Lickitung doesn't have the characteristics designed to make it look conventionally cute, shellos has a blue version, porygon isn't entirely pink and has no conventional cute factor, hoppip could be called red and evolves into something that is blue, exeggcute has no convetional cute factor, could be said to be more flesh-colored, and evolves into something not pink. None of them have obvious "feminine traits" either. (ex. curls)

Seriously, would you call any of those "girly pokemon?" (With the possible exception of the shellos, who as I said, has a blue version.)

In any case, it's not just about the pink. There are still no males that take care of babies, and the vast majority of fighting pokemon are still male. In Pokemon that are different species like Nidoqueen and Nidoking, Nidoking is still bigger and stronger. Males still have bigger manes or horns, and they gave the female pikachu a heart-shaped tail end.

This post has been edited by Kai Reddtail: Sep 8 2009, 11:44 PM

[LucarioandDialga]

I'd feel sorry for a male lopunny... cuz well luponny seems like it will always be a girl....

[Reyo]

I never said they were trying to make women seem inferior. I'm saying they are perpetuating gender stereotypes (ie girls are supposed to take care of babies, boys aren't supposed to like pink, etc.) That's bad for everyone, woman or man. Gender is a terrible and unnecessary burden society puts on us all, and pokemon is doing it too.

Either way, you're making it sound like Nintendo's doing some secret, gender based, world domination thing through their Pokemon games, which is something that sounds just as, if not more, silly as the attempt they've made at differentiating the pokemon genders.

[Kai Reddtail]

I never said they were trying to make women seem inferior. I'm saying they are perpetuating gender stereotypes (ie girls are supposed to take care of babies, boys aren't supposed to like pink, etc.) That's bad for everyone, woman or man. Gender is a terrible and unnecessary burden society puts on us all, and pokemon is doing it too.

Either way, you're making it sound like Nintendo's doing some secret, gender based, world domination thing through their Pokemon games, which is something that sounds just as, if not more, silly as the attempt they've made at differentiating the pokemon genders.

No, that's not what it's like at all. I think you're reading too far into what I'm saying.

Don't get me wrong here, this is a friendly debate. I'm not going to go on some kind of super feminist boycott of the games until they change it. I just wondered if anyone else has noticed it, or if anyone else thinks it's a little stereotypical that way?

"I just wondered if anyone else noticed, or if anyone else thinks..." "Just a friendly debate."

I just wanted a discussion, to see what people would say, and if anyone else thought this way too.

Pokemon is perpetuating stereotypes, and when they have so much influence and popularity (maybe not as much as they used to, but they do) they could use that positively and help change this sort of thing. Pokemon is not the only one doing it, by far. It's just that this happens to be a pokemon forum, so I focused it on pokemon.

No "world domination" no "making women seem inferior", just going along with the typical stereotypes and helping them continue. Just like almost every other TV show in existence. This is a problem way beyond pokemon, but I like to debate this sort of stuff and see other people's ideas and whatnot. That's all.

[Reyo]

I never said they were trying to make women seem inferior. I'm saying they are perpetuating gender stereotypes (ie girls are supposed to take care of babies, boys aren't supposed to like pink, etc.) That's bad for everyone, woman or man. Gender is a terrible and unnecessary burden society puts on us all, and pokemon is doing it too.

Either way, you're making it sound like Nintendo's doing some secret, gender based, world domination thing through their Pokemon games, which is something that sounds just as, if not more, silly as the attempt they've made at differentiating the pokemon genders.

No, that's not what it's like at all. I think you're reading too far into what I'm saying.

Don't get me wrong here, this is a friendly debate. I'm not going to go on some kind of super feminist boycott of the games until they change it. I just wondered if anyone else has noticed it, or if anyone else thinks it's a little stereotypical that way?

"I just wondered if anyone else noticed, or if anyone else thinks..." "Just a friendly debate."

I just wanted a discussion, to see what people would say, and if anyone else thought this way too.

Pokemon is perpetuating stereotypes, and when they have so much influence and popularity (maybe not as much as they used to, but they do) they could use that positively and help change this sort of thing. Pokemon is not the only one doing it, by far. It's just that this happens to be a pokemon forum, so I focused it on pokemon.

No "world domination" no "making women seem inferior", just going along with the typical stereotypes and helping them continue. Just like almost every other TV show in existence. This is a problem way beyond pokemon, but I like to debate this sort of stuff and see other people's ideas and whatnot. That's all.

Then you might want to reevaluate your original post, because you're laying the reverse racism a bit too thick.

And if you didn't want a long winded discussion, why such a long winded reply? Seems like you do want such a debate after all (but that's just me >.>) The point of my comment was to show you that a) I did notice it, b) I didn't particularly care and c) I was inquiring why you DID care. So...why DO you care?

This post has been edited by Reyo: Sep 9 2009, 01:22 PM

[Kai Reddtail]

Then you might want to reevaluate your original post, because you're laying the reverse racism a bit too thick.

And if you didn't want a long winded discussion, why such a long winded reply? Seems like you do want such a debate after all (but that's just me >.>) The point of my comment was to show you that a) I did notice it, b) I didn't particularly care and c) I was inquiring why you DID care. So...why DO you care?

Well, I disagree, so the original post is likely staying as it is.

a) Wonderful
b) Then why post?
c) I care because I have issues with gender barriers and stereotypes, and I like to discuss it. If you don't care or don't like to discuss it, then you are perfectly welcomed to not participate in the discussion.

Alas I digress, this isn't a thread about Kai's issues with gender, so if you really intend to keep talking about this you'll have to PM me. I'm not taking up space in the thread with this off-topic personal stuff, so I'm not going to reply to this stuff here anymore.

This post has been edited by Kai Reddtail: Sep 9 2009, 02:52 PM

[Reyo]

Then you might want to reevaluate your original post, because you're laying the reverse racism a bit too thick.

And if you didn't want a long winded discussion, why such a long winded reply? Seems like you do want such a debate after all (but that's just me >.>) The point of my comment was to show you that a) I did notice it, b) I didn't particularly care and c) I was inquiring why you DID care. So...why DO you care?

Well, I disagree, so the original post is likely staying as it is.

Then have fun looking like a sexist. (just sayen)

a) Wonderful
b) Then why post?
c) I care because I have issues with gender barriers and stereotypes, and I like to discuss it. If you don't care or don't like to discuss it, then you are perfectly welcomed to not participate in the discussion.

b) Read c
c) I do care to discuss such things, but I don't care about the gender bias in the games. I posted because I found it odd that you said "I don't want to make this into a femenism boycott thing" when half of your post sounds like something out of a femanism boycott thing, and you're writting such long winded denials.

This post has been edited by Reyo: Sep 9 2009, 02:17 PM

[Mythey]

It creeps me out about how I caught a female Machoke and a female Mr. Mime on my Crystal. o.o

Yeah! that always confused me. A female Mr. Mime? Wouldn't that be a Mrs. Mime?

[Kai Reddtail]

It creeps me out about how I caught a female Machoke and a female Mr. Mime on my Crystal. o.o

Yeah! that always confused me. A female Mr. Mime? Wouldn't that be a Mrs. Mime?

The creepiness some feel about a female machoke is due to gender stereotypes. lol.


As was stated earlier in the thread, Mr.Mime's english name was chosen before genders were implemented. It's original Japanese named is Barrier'd. Not gendered at all. The dubbers just thought it'd be funny to use alliteration as a name.


This post has been edited by Kai Reddtail: Sep 11 2009, 05:02 PM

[The Creationist]

Female pokemon are usually made to look "weaker" (smaller horns, etc.) Anything pink is either 100% or majority female.
Chansey is 100% female. It's pink and it's a healer/caretaker kind of pokemon and the standard nurse pokemon.
Kanghaskhan is 100% female, because it takes care of babies.

Most of the fighting pokemon are majority/100% male.
Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan are 100% male and Lucario has a majority male percentage.

Why can't Chansey or Kanghaskhan be male too? Males can take care of babies. Men can be nurses, caretakers and healers.

Believe it or not, some men like pink too. I know one.

And girls can be fighters, so why did they make Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan 100% male?

You have to understand that Pokemon isn't initially aimed at teenagers and the like.
I'm sure Nintendo doesn't want kids asking their parents 'Why is this exceedingly manly Pokemon in every way female? Is that sort of thing okay?' and vice versa. That could be potentially bad for them if they start getting complaints..
I know I'm being sort of hypocritical considering Machamp and Mr. Mime can be female, but that's barely noticeable.
Things like that wouldn't be barely noticeable any longer if more of the Pokemon had gender changes, such as the examples you gave.
These days, the stereotypical way is the 'normal' way.. and some parents can be really weird, ya know?

About the whole Pokemon/animal differences thing, Pokemon isn't supposed to be based entirely off of animals.
Some of them resemble animals yes, but that doesn't mean they have to work exactly how animals do in reality.
That would be too much hassel, and it would end up under appreciated anyway since, as I said, children are the main audience.

So in short I personally say they should keep things the way they are, as not to bring up the wrong idea.

[Kai Reddtail]

I know pokemon aren't based entirely off animals, that's what I was saying that in the OP where some people would say "the males look bigger/have bigger horns and manes/females look after babies because thats the way it works in nature."

I know it doesn't always follow nature, but that doesn't mean they have to go along with the stereotypes either.

Kids are exactly the ones who should be exposed to it. If we teach children that gender is an outdated ideal, it will go away much faster.

I suppose it's not really pokemon's job to try and reverse stereotypes. Even though the kind of influence they have could do wonders, they probably don't wanna rock the boat or they could lose out. I just thought I'd see how others felt about it, if anyone else noticed.

[The Creationist]

I know pokemon aren't based entirely off animals, that's what I was saying that in the OP where some people would say "the males look bigger/have bigger horns and manes/females look after babies because thats the way it works in nature."

I know it doesn't always follow nature, but that doesn't mean they have to go along with the stereotypes either.

Kids are exactly the ones who should be exposed to it. If we teach children that gender is an outdated ideal, it will go away much faster.

I suppose it's not really pokemon's job to try and reverse stereotypes. Even though the kind of influence they have could do wonders, they probably don't wanna rock the boat or they could lose out. I just thought I'd see how others felt about it, if anyone else noticed.

So.. you want a male kid to walk into school one day wearing a pink frilly dress because Pokemon influenced it's okay?
I have nothing against people who dress like that, but kids take things the wrong way, and that could easily be an end result.

People these days find anything to sue about..
Take the McDonalds incident where an over weight person sued McDonalds because they became overweight from the food.
So if parents think that Nintendo is sending out the wrong signals they will sue for it.

This post has been edited by m e s p r i t: Sep 16 2009, 05:42 PM

[Kai Reddtail]

So.. you want a male kid to walk into school one day wearing a pink frilly dress because Pokemon influenced it's okay?
I have nothing against people who dress like that, but kids take things the wrong way, and that could easily be an end result.

Well, yeah. That'd be awesome for a kid to start breakin' down the barriers like that. I'd offer to buy him some makeup if he wanted, and then be that kids' friend forever.

People these days find anything to sue about..
Take the McDonalds incident where an over weight person sued McDonalds because they became overweight from the food.
So if parents think that Nintendo is sending out the wrong signals they will sue for it.

That's why I'm saying Pokemon probably wouldn't be the ones to want to rock the boat. I'm just saying with their influence, they could do so much good. I don't blame them for taking the safe route and using all the usual stereotypes. Pretty much every big company does it.
Honestly, at the time I wrote the original post I was just sick of seeing it everywhere. I wanted to see if others noticed it too, even in our favorite games. I wanted to see if somebody could prove me wrong. And maybe, at the very least, I hoped open some people's eyes so they can see how ridiculous and pervasive it all is. The more attention this kind of stuff gets, the more people think about it and see it another way, maybe it'll make a difference someday.

Edit: I apologize if I don't make sense at some points. I'm a little tired.

This post has been edited by Kai Reddtail: Sep 16 2009, 10:24 PM

[The Creationist]

Well, yeah. That'd be awesome for a kid to start breakin' down the barriers like that. I'd offer to buy him some makeup if he wanted, and then be that kids' friend forever.

Sigh.. you are missing the point Kai.
Not everyone is as accepting as you are.
If a kid is influenced enough to do such a thing you can guarantee his school days will become extremely miserable.
Everyone will hold that against him and tease him until they are blue in the face.

That very reason is why it's best Pokemon keeps things the way they are.
Gender stereotypes have existed since forever, and they aren't going away anytime soon.

[Kai Reddtail]

Well, yeah. That'd be awesome for a kid to start breakin' down the barriers like that. I'd offer to buy him some makeup if he wanted, and then be that kids' friend forever.

Sigh.. you are missing the point Kai.
Not everyone is as accepting as you are.
If a kid is influenced enough to do such a thing you can guarantee his school days will become extremely miserable.
Everyone will hold that against him and tease him until they are blue in the face.

That very reason is why it's best Pokemon keeps things the way they are.
Gender stereotypes have existed since forever, and they aren't going away anytime soon.

Nothing will change if we think like that, will it my friend?

The little boy won't be teased if something influenced enough boys to accept this way of thinking. Every revolutionary way of thinking encounters resistance at some point. How do you think women got to wear pants? By saying "It's been that way since forever, it's not going to change anytime soon"? That seems rather unlikely to me. There are still countries where women face much worse persecution than teasing for wearing pants. But they still do. Nothing will ever change if nobody tries.

I know, I'm living in a dream world now. But someday people will move beyond all this, if humanity has any intelligence at all. I'm just trying to make people think, and help them see what I mean. Every little bit helps. Every person who understands and works against genders is one less person perpetuating the problem. Every game or TV show or book that works against these stereotypes could create a few less people perpetuating the problem. Eventually, it'll make a noticeable difference.

This post has been edited by Kai Reddtail: Sep 16 2009, 11:12 PM

[Mr Cadju]

there should be male kangaskhan. Look at the seahorses, they have babies in their pouches! HmpH!

[several]

I think youre right exept with Kanghaskan since it's a kangaroo and only feamales have poches
But anyway agreed.