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Breed Specific Legislation, AKA "The Pitbull Ban"
Zoreta
post Jul 28 2009, 02:03 PM
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With the killer bunnies (XD), are you sure it wasn't a case of the mother being aggressive and teaching her offspring the same habits? It might have only taken one abused-mean bunny mom teaching her kids to be mean a couple gen back.

The pregnant amstaff thing is weird- you can still spay a pregnant female if it's early in the pregnancy, aborting the feti in the process. Seems like that would have made a lot more sense.


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Reyo
post Jul 28 2009, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE(Zoreta @ Jul 28 2009, 02:03 PM) *
With the killer bunnies (XD), are you sure it wasn't a case of the mother being aggressive and teaching her offspring the same habits? It might have only taken one abused-mean bunny mom teaching her kids to be mean a couple gen back.

The pregnant amstaff thing is weird- you can still spay a pregnant female if it's early in the pregnancy, aborting the feti in the process. Seems like that would have made a lot more sense.


You mean monkey see-monkey do? That could definately be it. Just like how kids will tend to vote for the same candidate as their parents will.

Another could be cases of rape. Let's say one guy raped two women, which resulted in pregnancy (assuming they don't abort.) They're both boys. One mother teaches the son to respect women like he would his own body and the other teaches him that all men are evil and that he should be ashamed for existing. Which do you think will be more aggressive? It's nature v. nurture.

PS, The idea of killer bunnies amuses me as well. XD


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Drifty
post Aug 4 2009, 12:05 PM
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I don't understand how Pitbull bans are even considered in this country. Aren't we over the racism thing? Many pitbulls are friendly and loving dogs. As with any dog, it depends on how you raise them. For instance, if you raised at Jack Russell in a fighting ring, it'd turn out pretty nasty too, wouldn't it? But I have a Jack Russell, and he's the sweetest, craziest dog I know. All dogs can turn out horribly wrong when raised wrong. Pitbulls aren't singular in this. And they're incredibly discriminated against. There are cops in Miami that have found Pitbulls, and although they seemed sweet and didn't have any visible personality problems, without even testing the dog for personality problems like they normally do the dog was labeled a 'ticking time bomb' (with no evidence behind that fact besides his breed) and he was euthanized. And this was a dog that was remarkably friendly, licking the people when they found him. Does this sound fair to you? A dog can't help how it was born. This is the same as the race thing with humans. Dogs are getting killed for their breed just like black people were enslaved for their race. Have we learned nothing through all these years? It's disgusting how no matter how much time goes on, WE LEARN NOTHING. People can be so stupid.


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Kai Reddtail
post Aug 4 2009, 04:52 PM
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Thought I would reply to this post on the other thread:

QUOTE
Pit bulls were bred for fighting. They have a jaw that locks, and usually are quick to anger.


Actually, pitbulls were originally bred to hold on to the nose of a bull while a farmer castrated the bull. Yes, they were bred for fighting after, but so were many other dogs. Pits were bred to be aggressive towards other dogs, not towards humans. Humans had to be able to go in and pull the dogs apart, dogs that attacked humans were culled.

The locking jaw is a myth, a pitbull's jaw is anatomically identical to any other dog's jaw.


And they are no quicker to anger than any other dog. In fact, it may be just the opposite. Pitbulls were bred for a high pain tolerance, and therefore can handle more harassment than the average dog. They even used to be called nanny dogs, because mothers would let them watch their children. They have a higher tolerance for a child's tendency to pull/poke/annoy the dog.

That being said, dogs and children should never ever be left alone unsupervised, ever. Even the most tolerant dog has a breaking point, and you can't blame them for that. Once a dog was put to sleep for attacking a child, and after they examined him they found a pencil stuffed in the poor dog's ear canal. Dogs and children do not mix, because children do not always understand how to be gentle, and dogs don't always understand that they may be too big or playing too rough.


Just thought I'd review some points cause this thread is active again.

This post has been edited by Kai Reddtail: Aug 4 2009, 05:00 PM


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Dragongirl76137
post Aug 4 2009, 05:45 PM
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Almost every time you hear of Pit Bull attacks what never ceases to amaze me is that the news report says that the dog was being kicked, teased, had things thrown at it etc and yet it is always the dog that is in the wrong.

I saw this and if everyone followed this list then Pit Bulls would not be as vilinized as they are

10 Commandments for Pit Bull onwers

1. Thou shalt NEVER trust thy Pit Bull not to fight

2.Thou shalt contain thy Pit Bull securely when not supervised by an adult

3.Thou shalt NEVER leave thy adult Pit Bull alone and unsupervised with another dog

4.Thou SHALT attend obedience classes most faithfully with thy Pit Bull

5.Thou SHALT keep thy Pit Bull socialized with ALL KINDS of people

6. Thy Pit Bull wilt NEVER be allowed off-leash in a public place

7.Thy Pit Bull wilt NEVER be allowed to roam free in thy neighborhood, EVER!

8.Thou SHALT take thy well trained Pit Bull out in public and show him/her off - on leash for good breed PR!

9. Thy Pit Bull shalt go forth into the world as an ambassador of the pit bull breed

10. THOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY WRONG DONE BY THY DOGS!

This post has been edited by Dragongirl76137: Aug 4 2009, 05:46 PM


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Usagi Zakura
post Aug 4 2009, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE(Zoreta @ Jul 28 2009, 09:03 PM) *
With the killer bunnies (XD), are you sure it wasn't a case of the mother being aggressive and teaching her offspring the same habits? It might have only taken one abused-mean bunny mom teaching her kids to be mean a couple gen back.

The pregnant amstaff thing is weird- you can still spay a pregnant female if it's early in the pregnancy, aborting the feti in the process. Seems like that would have made a lot more sense.

Their mother wasn't aggressive while nursing the babies. In fact she was extremely friendly!
According to one of the owners however she was pretty bad before giving birth (personally I would never use such an animal in breeding even if it's supposed to calm them down, since you tend to end up with 5 little ones who are just as bad facepalm.gif )


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HitomiNoRyu
post Aug 5 2009, 08:11 PM
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The dog is not the problem. The OWNER is the problem. BEWARE OF OWNER!

Besides most of these aggressive traits are actually hard to maintain in pit bulls to the next generation. Even dog fighters will tell anyone they'll lucky to find one good fighting dog out of a litter.

This post has been edited by HitomiNoRyu: Aug 5 2009, 08:12 PM


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Natsume Reiko
post Aug 6 2009, 02:26 AM
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Animals aren't cruel by nature but humans are surprisingly cruel towards animals. Any abused animal will lash out in fear. Same goes to pitbulls. I've done a lot of rescue work on animals, mostly cats but there's really no difference. An abused animal is an abused animal. It will be distrustful towards humans and aggressive. People don't understand that and just want an easy way out. Rehabbing an animal from abuse and aggression is hard and takes a lot of patience. I should know. I've spent hours rehabilitating abused cats.

Just because an animal is a certain breed doesn't make it any different than its peers. Breeding aggression is rather counterproductive considering that most dog breeders have spent a lot of time breeding aggressive natures out of the gene pool. It would be counterproductive to have a dog that would bite you while you're hunting, ect.

Dogs take a lot of training and quite frankly people these days have little to no patience to work with them. It takes several classes to get the dog to become obedient and even then you have to enforce the lessons for a time before you can trust the dog to do as you wish. People get frustrated and give up. Some people abuse them for not following through on the training, ect, ect.

Pit bulls aren't the only breed to fall to such issues- any animal regardless of breed will succumb to abusive conditions no matter if they're bred to be completely docile.


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Drifty
post Aug 6 2009, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE(Admiral Cereus @ Aug 6 2009, 02:26 AM) *
Animals aren't cruel by nature but humans are surprisingly cruel towards animals. Any abused animal will lash out in fear. Same goes to pitbulls. I've done a lot of rescue work on animals, mostly cats but there's really no difference. An abused animal is an abused animal. It will be distrustful towards humans and aggressive. People don't understand that and just want an easy way out. Rehabbing an animal from abuse and aggression is hard and takes a lot of patience. I should know. I've spent hours rehabilitating abused cats.

Just because an animal is a certain breed doesn't make it any different than its peers. Breeding aggression is rather counterproductive considering that most dog breeders have spent a lot of time breeding aggressive natures out of the gene pool. It would be counterproductive to have a dog that would bite you while you're hunting, ect.

Dogs take a lot of training and quite frankly people these days have little to no patience to work with them. It takes several classes to get the dog to become obedient and even then you have to enforce the lessons for a time before you can trust the dog to do as you wish. People get frustrated and give up. Some people abuse them for not following through on the training, ect, ect.

Pit bulls aren't the only breed to fall to such issues- any animal regardless of breed will succumb to abusive conditions no matter if they're bred to be completely docile.


Amen. People should listen to you more. I completely agree. This discrimination against Pit Bulls is ridiculous; and in states where they're illegal hundreds of them are getting "humanely euthanized" for no good reason, besides the fact that they've been labeled "a ticking time bomb" no matter how friendly they appear to be. It's ridiculous and altogether unfair.


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Shszha
post Aug 8 2009, 12:45 PM
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I completely agree with both of you. In fact, you could get a very aggressive Toy Poodle that's biting everything at sight, if it was abused and learned that all humans want to hurt him, so he'd rather be the first to bite, or if he learned that he's the leader and defender of the pack, not the human.
You can actually watch this behaviour in a lot of toy dogs, since they are spolied beyond good and evil and think they're the bosses. The only difference between them and the evil Pit Bull is:

A handbag-doggy yapping and growling and going mad is probably seen as "cute, the little thing wants to be a real dog".
A Pit Bull (or any other bigger breed) yapping and growling and going mad is seen as "a very dangerous dog that could easily kill someone".

It's always the human that teaches the dog how to behave.
And my feelings are with the dogs that defend themselves against being teased, hit or thrown at by some kids. How else are people supposed to learn that animals DO feel pain and can't be treated like plushies?
I myself was taught that at a very young age. If I hurt the animal, it will defend itself. You would do the same. Easy as that.

EDIT: Typos

This post has been edited by Shszha: Aug 8 2009, 12:48 PM


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Dragongirl76137
post Aug 8 2009, 01:03 PM
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another reason the Toy Dogs are not seen as vicous "killer" dogs is how much damage can they do if they do bite? Not a lot they don't have a big mouth so really there is only so much they can get. While a bigger dog such as Pits have a much bigger mouth, bigger teeth so when they open the mouth to vbte they can actually hurt you. If people started to make as big a fuss over small toy dog bites as they do over bigger dog bites then maybe people would see how really stupid it is to ban dogs because they have crappy owners


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aiadonyx
post Aug 9 2009, 01:03 PM
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Pit-bulls aren't any more dangerous than any other strong dog. We shouldn't ban pit-bulls, we should punish people who force their dogs to fight more severely.


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ForeverSearching
post Aug 12 2009, 03:23 PM
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I really disagree with the breed-specific bans. I mean, it's illegal to pass things like that that deal with humans... I've met a few Pitbulls and they are the sweetest things. My neighbor's Schnauzer is meaner than they were...German Shepherds actually have a higher bite force, but you don't see them getting banned. Akita's can be pretty violent too, but that's beside the point. I think it's the owner's responsibility for how their dog acts, just like how people view a child's behavior as a reflection of how the parent is doing.


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Dragongirl76137
post Aug 17 2009, 12:15 PM
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To any one that thinks Pit BUlls are a bad dog watch this vid notice the behavior of the Pit and take note of what dog is biting

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80722389/


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Dragon Maiden
post Aug 17 2009, 01:29 PM
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People have seem to forgotten the fact that dogs are descendents of wild animals. Yes the breeds have been domesticated and all that other fancy stuff but they still carry in them the instincts that their wild ancestors had (just like horses do, domesticated horses still carry the fright-and-flight instinct that most herd animals do. If you feel threatened you run, for dogs if you feel threatened you bite, we can call it the fright-and-bite instinct I suppose XD) All dogs carry this in some form or another and people would do good to remember that. Just like if you plan and going out and bringing a tiger home as a pet, you should have the proper training and experience. It's the same with a dog. Proper ownership and handling is the answer to this problem, not banning a breed (might as well ban all dogs if you ban a breed.) It might actually do the government good to require licenses where you have to have to go through classes that teach proper handling before owning a cat or dog (I know, highly unlikely because the world is not a perfect place but that's how I wish it could be noes.gif).


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Shszha
post Sep 9 2009, 09:00 AM
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@ dragon maiden: THIS exactly!

The whole dog-training thing is about how to transform their natural instincts into something that doesn't harm humans or even does them good.

Hunting urge? Go and play fetch with it.
The urge to form a pack? Fine, tell it you are the leader.
Defending the territory? Yes, but only as the pack leader allows.

Why do people have to make everything so complicated?


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Sunwish
post Sep 26 2009, 10:13 AM
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Pit bulls are very eager-to-please. So if the owner says "good dog" when the pit bull is being very sweet, the pit bull will think okay nice=good dog. Same goes with fighting. Helen Keller had a pit bull. Yet it never ripped her face off. It was really sweet. At the animal shelter where I volunteer, there used to be this timid, shy little pit bull who loved people. Now he's in a loving home, where he can get lots of TLC.

I know this one guy on Miami Animal Police said once "I'd rather wrestle with a gator than face an angry raccon." If I was to use this as an analogy between two dog breeds, the gator is like a pit bull, and the raccon is like a chihwawa. Get the picture (not that pit bulls are like gators, but chihwawas are worse)?

The attitude that all pit bulls should be euthanized is pure bullshit. Did you know that of all the pit bulls Michael Vick used for dog fighting, only 2 had to be put down? One was in too much pain and would have died a slow, painful death if not put down. The other was too violent.


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post Sep 26 2009, 09:04 PM
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I hate how people stereotype pit bulls just because of what they hear in the news and whatnot. Hell, even chows get the same treatment. I knew someone with a chow and it was a very sweet dog. God, my mutt of a large dog was more ferocious than that thing! (Had to put her to sleep 3 years ago, she had a cancerous tumor and we didn't have the money for the surgery to remove it...) My old dog was trained to guard us and guard us she did. It's how you train and treat a dog that defines how it acts around others. Any dog is going to act aggressive if you harm it, corner it, or scare it. Even humans will act aggressive if you do that to them, it's a survival mechanism and if you are gonna punish an animal for it, you better punish the one who makes the animal act like that. Pit bulls are the same as every dog. Any dog can be bred and trained to fight, but poor pit bulls have the bad rep...

Young children have a tendency to harass animals and bring out their aggressiveness. That's why they shouldn't be allowed a pet until they are 4-5 and capable of understanding that harassing an animal to the point of aggressiveness is gonna get them bit and/or scratched. I wasn't allowed a dog until I was 5!

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post Oct 3 2009, 09:36 AM
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Pitbull hate is disgusting, judging all dogs by their breed is just like judging a person based on their skin color. Euthanize a dog that bites, not one that just happens to be related to it.

Bad owners make bad dogs.


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post Oct 9 2009, 06:45 PM
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I posted at length in another thread about pit bulls, but it fits in this thread as well.

QUOTE(Wolverine @ Oct 9 2009, 07:27 PM) *
QUOTE(Usagi Zakura @ Oct 9 2009, 10:08 AM) *
Pitbulls aren't that big are they? The most I've seen (only on TV since they're banned here) were barely bigger than my mom's dog which I would consider medium.


(Note - the pit bull breeds are often called "bully breeds", and I use this term as well. "Molosser" is a term used for the family of mastiff type dogs. Curiously, Boxers fall into the Molosser category.)

(A note on registries: the United Kennel Club was created at the same time as the AKC. While the AKC was more of a "gentleman's club" and focused on strictly breeding dogs for appearance, the UKC registered dogs bred to work at their respective functions. The APBT , as well as the various Coonhound breeds, have long been top registrars int he UKC.

The American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA) is another all breed registry but with a heavy emphasis on preserving the authenticity of the American Pit Bull Terrier breed. It is the most popular registry for APBT's, rivaling even the UKC, and focuses on function over form in its standard for the APBT.)



The general breed standard for the American Pit Bull Terrier puts them at an athletic 30-60lbs - a far cry from a "large breed" dog. Pit Bulls bred and shown in the UKC (The United Kennel Club) tend to be bred for a larger, more muscular build (similar in physical appearance to the American Staffordshire Terrier) and tend to fall in at 50-80 lbs depending on the dog.

For a bit of pit bull related history, the Am. Staff was a creation of the AKC back when it was created in the early portion of the 1900's. The APBT's past as a fighting dog was too "bloody" for the AKC (Which is ironic considering the terrier group as a whole was created to hunt and kill rats), so they modified things by "creating" the American Staffordshire Terrier. The APBT is primarily bred for performance, while the Am. Staff is bred for the show ring.

People seem to agree to disagree about what is, and what isn't a pit bull. Breeds that are usually under the "pit bull" umbrella are the APBT, Am. Staff, and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier (A smaller and more compact bully breed dog, that generally averages 25-40 lbs), Some areas go so far as to include all bulldog and bully type breeds under their "pit bull" legislation, and breeds like the Bull Terrier, American Bulldog, various types of mastiff and molosser breeds (Presa Canarios, Cane Corsos, Tosa Inus, Bull and English Mastiffs) are commonly - and erroneously - labeled as pit bulls.

A relatively new "designer hybrid" called the American Bully has been growing in popularity over the last 20 some odd years. It also does not help that a lot of Am. Bully breeders call their dogs APBT's, when in fact the Am. Bully is a result of a selective breeding program out of APBT's and Am. Staffs. Some Am. Bully lines incorporate bulldog or mastiff blood for a more "bully" appearance. Those huge, block-headed, 80lbs+ "pit bulls" that you see are actually American Bullies.


Here is a pictorial comparison of the ADBA-standard American Pit Bull Terrier, the UKC Standard American Pit Bull Terrier, and the AKC American Staffordshire Terrier:






Anyway.. as a pit bull lover and owner of one myself, I'm very passionate about breed specific lelgislation and the unfortunate stigma that pit bulls and other molosser breeds carry with them. I'm also very fond of the german working breeds, like German Shepherds and Rottweilers, which also have been legislated against.

Yes , there are aggressive pit bulls , but there are also aggressive Labradors, Collies, Boxers, and any other breed you can list. Most dog bites are actually from the family dog, and the vast majority of the time is a result of the human not recognizing a dog's body language. Most bites in children are facial bites, from a childm getting down on a dog's level - a huge no-no. Children in general are very physical and hands-on, and it is tragic how many bites can be avoided by properly supervising dog-child interactions.

Aggression in dogs is a result of a tremendous amount of variables, including environment and socialization. There is no breed that is "inherently vicious". Any breed will show aggressive tendencies if their mental, physical, and emotional needs are not met.

Fatalities from dog bites are quite rare. What people need to understand is that the media likes to blow things out of proportion. They want to make money, and an attention-grabbing headline such as "Pit Bull Mauls Child!" is a lot more eye-catching than "Dog Accidentally Nips Child". What many people don't know is that a disturbing amount of media reports of "pit bull maulings" are, in actuality, not "maulings at all. Much of the time, a media-reported "pit bull" isn't even a pit bull! As an example on how the media unfairly portrays the pit bull, several years ago, a Pomeranian killed an infant. Yet, you did not see people calling for pomeranians to be banned and killed en-mass. Yet, the pit bull report sticks with the readers and legislators, who then push to have an entire breed of dog banned from their town/city/county/state because of a few isolated incidents. Breed Specific Legislation (BSL) is alive and well and is an entirely ignorance-out-of-fear driven response to a dog bite. Rather than educating people on how to train their dogs, and how to act around dogs, they pin the blame on the dogs, and the cycle continues.

Furthermore, an attack by a non-pit bull breed isn't as headline garnering as a "Pit Bull Attack!". The folks over at the KC Dog Blog have kept a constantly updating list of media reports about dog bites and dog related injury, and there is a huge difference on the wording in a report on a pit bull bite, and the wording in a report on a Labrador bite.

There is so much I can get into about the media, and about breed specific legislation, but there aren't enough hours in the day.

It is unfortunate that the pit bull is currently the "status breed of choice" for low-income people who get a dog just for the purpose of having a status symbol. Dogs that are kept chained in the backyard, with little in the way of socialization. Dogs that are goaded and encouraged from a young age to perform aggressive behavior.

A few decades ago, the Rottweiler was the breed of choice and the breed the media focused on as being "inherently aggressive". Before that it was the Doberman, in the 1970's. And before that, the German Shepherd Dog. These three dogs, just as the pit bull, were and still are very popular, which would result in disproportionally larger amount of bites seen than , say, a Swedish Vallhund.

In the early portion of the 1900's, collies were thought of as aggressive because it was thought that their narrower skulls would trap a growing brain, resulting in a vicious, crazy dog. (This same myth was re-used for the Doberman, and now the pit bull). In the 1800's, Bloodhounds were thought of as vicious, partly because of their use to track down escaping slaves.
Perceptions on different breeds and dog aggression changes with the passage of time, but I fear that the pit bull has suffered more from negative public perception than any other breed and may not recover from it in my life-time.

To answer the original poster's question, yes, a dog that happens to be a large breed can be dangerous in the wrong hands - just as a small breed dog can be dangerous, given the right (or wrong) circumstances.



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