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Posted by: BidoofsAreSassy May 1 2008, 05:30 PM

woo, another one of those big debate topics that every site needs.

I'm personally interested in seeing how many people are of the opinion that a) it's against Christianity, and thus is wrong, or b) t3h homoz r disgutingzzzzz lololol.

In case you can't tell, I'm for same-sex marriage. While something like polygamy would require much larger reforms to marriage-related laws, same-sex marriage only requires substituting "he" for "she," and so on, or the inverse, really. The only logical reasons that come to mind as to why to be against it are the two I mentioned previously, which are in fact both extremely illogical - if a church doesn't want to marry a gay or lesbian couple, it doesn't have to, but has no place forcing that belief on other institutions, and the fact that you don't like homosexuals is clearly no excuse for denying others their rights either.

Discuss.

Posted by: Hokkai no Oni May 1 2008, 09:10 PM

I happen to agree with you. I do find homosexuality distasteful, I will admit, but my opinion is that if people keep themselves to themselves and their love lives private they can do whatever they like and it's neither mine or anyone else's business. I'm not happy with the idea that someone, somebody else, has the right to tell us how to live our lives, and what is right or wrong, as it implies that they're somehow better than you, and frankly, everyone is ultimately equal, regardless of how they refer to themselves.

It's different if you're harming someone. I know of some repressed homosexuals who go around raping men, a friend of mine had that happen to him at college, and a serial gay rapist was recently on the loose near here. That needs stopping. But when both people consent to it and have feelings for each other, and aren't harming anyone, then they should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want (and to fuck whatever they want).

Fear of the unknown and mob rule mentality don't democracy make, and it astounds me that we supposedly live in democratic, freedom loving, sophisticated, politically correct countries that still have these irrational phobias and bigotries. I actually have a theory that says the more politically correct someone or a group claim to be, the more bigoted and irrational they are. Political correctness is an insidious kind of social evil in that now anyone can hide behind it and be difficult to spot for what they are. In the old days you didn't need to worry about who the bigots were, because they proudly professed their idiotic and intolerant beliefs to all and sundry.

Posted by: DethSlayr May 1 2008, 09:27 PM

Okay heres the deal. I find people who are homosexuals completely disgusting.. lesbos.. not as much as men
Either way im against it, god gave men a you know what and women a you know what for a reason and that's how the world works. Now I'm fine with people being gay instead of straight, but it's not somehting i want to see or hear about cuz I LIKE GIRLS enough said

Posted by: Ike May 2 2008, 02:01 PM

You're against homosexuality because it isn't the norm? That's pretty stupid.

Gay marriage doesn't affect any of us, neither does being gay unless you rape other men/women; similar stuff applies to being straight really. It's really not hurting anyone, and if you're against it just don't get involved with it. As long as they're not completely open about it.

Posted by: Fallen Archangel May 2 2008, 02:45 PM

LONG RANT TIME

Being from Massachusetts, I see gay people all the time. Being in Drama Club, I know many gays. I also go to Catholic School. So I'm basically in two different situations. My school condemns the thought of marriage between two people of the same sex, and as a teacher put it last year, "The puzzle pieces don't fit that way". However, my stance is one like many of yours.

I don't care. Go, get married. God didn't put us on this earth to walk around and never know the beauty of marriage if we were different. Sexuality is not a condition, nor is it a choice. It is your psychology, which cannot be changed unless something drastic occurs. You are born with what you are. If you were meant to be gay/lesbian, fine. If you were meant to be bisexual, fine. If you were meant to be straight, fine. I don't care.

What sickens me is the persecution gays can face at times. They're human, like you or me. Yet, some people have been killed because of it. Because of their psychology. You can't help it. There's no "surgery" to be straight. then again, MJ's black to white surgery isn't working THAT much. You can't "convert" from gay to straight, or vice versa. You're born that way and you're basically stuck with it. Your only road is denial. And that will not work.

I'm coming to you as someone who has faced this, not because I'm gay, because I still fit the stereotype. I'm the epitome of Drama, and everything you see in a gay man is what you see in me. The treatment of someone who likes someone different is so different. It can be worse than race or religion. You don't get made fun of as much for that anymore. But the way the Catholic Church condemns sodomy (which is also a CRIMINAL OFFENSE) is ridiculous.

I'm not trying to say, "go have a public gay orgy" or anything like that. What I'm saying is that gays are people, and the modern world treats them like rats, filth. Even in the very beginning of the BIBLE, gays were killed for the way they acted (mind you, these men were much more radical than the gays of today but you still get the picture). I have gay friends, and I treat them like friends, not like gay friends. I know people have gone after me. I can't help that. Let them.

So I say, I don't care. But just don't rape me in the middle of the night. That's my standpoint.

Posted by: Blax8192 May 2 2008, 04:03 PM

Against it completely. It's mainly in the way they were raised, males are supposed to, at an early age, form a bond with their father and somewhat separate from their mother. The problem is when the father distances himself or that bond isn't formed the boy learns to hang out with girls basically and develops those . . . tastes. Or something like that. I had to watch a video in school on it *watches as everybody cringes* Fact is I live less than 100 miles from key west which is infamous (where I live) for having a much higher concentration of gay people. This is true, my day works down there delivering medical equipment and has guys try to come on to him regularly *cringe* anyway, the fact is, we weren't made that way or we would have both . . . sets of organs and be able to reproduce with any other fertile human on the planet. Not so. There is a distinct difference between males and females and when two cross they do NOT have children. Gay people cannot pass on "gay genes". It is the parents fault, and it goes against the way nature works, being gay period. The way nature works are some of the most powerful laws in the universe and gay people go against these laws, then complain when they get AIDS or whatever else.

Dolphins and humans are the only two animals on the planet to have sex for fun instead of just for reproduction. To put it bluntly this is probably part of the reason why we have gays. Sex is not just for reproduction to us anymore, it's a sport, a pastime, and gay people completely ignore the natural purpose of sex and just . . . Use your imagination if you dare . . .

Politically correct pisses me off. Don't even get me started on politically correct. It is a lie. When I hear the word politically correct I impulsively say "bullshit". America was based on the statement "all men were created equal, we hold these truths to be self evident" or maybe it's the other way around. It means the same thing. We have black people only colleges. We have black people college funds (African American is "politically correct", but they are all Americans, so their only distinguishment is being black skinned) Black history month, etc. etc. and if we had any of this for white people guess what. We'd be racist. If any white person looks mad at a black person, We're racist. If we hit a black person, We're racist. If we hit them after five of them jump out from behind a bush and start beating the shit out of us (5 on 1) and I throw a punch, I'm racist. It doesn't work the other way around though. If they all jump on me and call me a honky or whatever they call me or whatever they do. I'm racist no matrter what happens. I can't accuse them of being racist. It applies to mexicans, cubans (I mean illegal immigrants too) as well, only white people are ever accused of being racist but it goes both ways. Politically correct my ass!

Posted by: Ike May 2 2008, 04:26 PM

You realize straight people can rape also, right?

Blax, good job at stating why you're against it.
I'm quite straight and I was very distanced from my father until only a few years ago. I can tell you from experience that what you're saying is bullshit. Mind you, he is a good father, but that's quite irrelevant to the topic.

Posted by: Hokkai no Oni May 2 2008, 07:44 PM

Well done Sir. You have just saved me, fresh from coming from an entire evening of arguing with my bigoted grandfather from having to think of a relative of mine as the single biggest fuckwad moron I've spoken to today. I'd say ever, but sadly ignorance is rife and unavoidable, and I seem to be in a position to be nauseated by statements of supreme wilful stupidity with a regularity that explains my partially-self-imposed hermetical ways. You better be comfortable, because I'm going to rip your post apart molecule by molecule, in excruciating detail, and I expect it will take some time due to the sheer enormity of your lack of mental acuity and substance.

So your argument, initially, is that the way parents raise their children, and the attachment that the child has towards each parent depending on their gender is the key to homosexuality? Well, I'm a scientist and I'm empirical so I'd like some sort of evidence to back it up, since you present it here as fact rather than opinion (this just in, opinions do not facts make, and for the record this is my opinion and not itself a fact before you get into a pedantic little pissing contest with me). Some spurious brain-washing video you were obliged to watch at your clearly backwards and dangerously inept school hardly counts as evidence, especially since you conveniently failed to provide a clear reference so that we could go away and seek it out for ourselves. Though that may indeed be the sole saving grace in your entire post, since I think it entirely possible that that video is damaging to the sanity and judgement of anyone forced to sit through it's bilious and ill-informed drivel. I can only imagine the video used to "recondition" Alex in A Clockwork Orange as being more potently warping. I further surmise it was shown to you just after the video explaining that God planted fossils in the Earth to fuck with our collective minds, and just prior to the video showing how all women are inferior and inherently evil on the basis of having gone scrumping for apples way back at the start of time and talking men into doing it with them, thus angering a borrowed God who put the apples there for the sole reason of fucking with our collective minds and then holding it over our heads for all of eternity. I know, I know, it probably didn't put it in quite those terms, but I'm paraphrasing to save some time here.

Flaw number one, which is immediately obvious to those possessed of the merest talents in the way of observation is that there are many boys with single mothers and no idea who their fathers are, and who are not all gay. Indeed, many of them are womanising pigs, with an Oedipus syndrome of such a scale as to give Freud's long-dead corpse a permanently priapic stance.

Flaw number two; many fathers are utter bastards. This is something I have some first-hand personal experience of. These fathers are absolutely the last people who should be taken example from, though many of their poor, deluded sons continue to try. Were they to succeed however, they'd be wife and children beating, home wrecking, heart breaking little shits in no time at all, which is something I'm sure we want all such children to aspire to.

Flaw number three is that some homosexuals, forced by fear reinforced by the public vile ranting of bigots such as yourself, wind up marrying women under the pretence of being heterosexual, and having children with them, some of them who are sons. And these sons, again, are not all gay. You would think, surely, that if parental misguidance were at fault then these secretly gay fathers would be the most likely to espouse homosexual ideals to their child? Apparently this is not the case... quite the contradiction, isn't it?

Flaw four - yes, the fourth, and I'm still stuck on your first point! Many mothers incite their sons to chase women and "sow their wild oats". In fact, women are less likely to be tolerant of a homosexual son than most fathers, unless you're talking about religious nutcases where both parents spurn the child equally. I personally have on several occasions had my mother ask me if I myself are gay, on the basis that I haven't had sex with a woman and not made much of an effort. Woe betide you should actually try and understand your child, as I'm not gay, though this post will no doubt inspire a knee-jerk reaction and explanation that I am and am in denial since I'm defending gays so vociferously and with words of more than one syllable. Actually I'm just shy and very old-fashioned to the point that modern ideas of "romance" do not sit well with my personal ones, and I have more important priorities to boot (though I do actually have a girlfriend, who is a member here incidentally). To come to the point, most mothers would push their sons towards finding a girlfriend and making them grandchildren. This goes further against your ludicrous assertions that being close to your mother makes you more likely to develop a taste for giving other men blowjobs.

Anyway, moving on. You live a hundred miles from a well-known gay community? My dear fellow, how can you possibly stand such a thing? Let's forget that a hundred miles is actually a not insubstantial distance (actually, to put it more bluntly, a fucking long way off), and concentrate on allowing you to tremble in indignant rage and fear that someone might think to love you regardless of your genitalia being on the outside and their's too. I mean, I'm sure that all the folks round where you live are in a perpetual state of wonder and terror about when those gosh-darned homos will rise up in a tide of anal sex and sweep through your town, causing all the men to become queer too and subsequently dead from AIDS and leaving the women barren and no-longer barefoot and pregnant, but neglected and alone. I can just see that as a successful horror movie, so harrowing the concept alone is, and there you are living it as a possible reality! If only it were zombies, then you'd stand some sort of chance... alas, it is not to be. Can't your father, being a purveyor of medical materials, somehow contrive to smuggle down at great personal risk some manner of cure for those Godless creatures? I can't believe that never occurred to you, really, you're going to have to do better than that to avoid a premature demise at the hands of HIV. Have you no survival instincts whatsoever man?!

You mention that people don't have both sets of genitals. Well, it's uncommon I grant you, but yes, actually, some people do have both. And I don't mean transvestites undergoing surgery, or even simple cheap old-fashioned weekend cross-dressers who pose in their wife's clothes in their bedroom mirrors when nobody is around to see. I mean hermaphrodites, so named because of the ancient Greek myth of the demi-god Hermaphroditus who was forced to live amongst mortals down on Earth and who was lured by his own uncontrollable lust to enter a lake inhabited by the Naiad Queen Salmacis, who used her dark powers to merge them into a single being and forever entrap him with her. Not that actual hermaphrodites have any such romantic or dramatic origin for their condition; they were simply naturally born with the reproductive systems of both sexes. It's a horrible life, due to people like you who consider them unnatural freaks and monsters, aberrations that have no right to exist. But they do exist, and are born that way, which implies that if there is a God He designed them that way. And as they're still human, they were designed in God's image too... makes you wonder whether He is really just a He. And yes, hermaphrodites can both father and mother children, again, naturally. Another flaw whereby your argument is sundered and shot to pieces. I'm beginning to detect a pattern here.

Right, what's next? Ah yes, the notion that homosexuality is unnatural. Sorry to disagree with you (I'm not really, this is sarcasm, in case you couldn't tell) but baboons and various other apes fuck other males in their species. In fact, male baboons have even given birth despite apparently lacking female organs. Though I guess maybe I should have brought that up at the previous point. Not just apes too, but practically all animals can do it. Female rodents simulate copulation with other female rodents, most notably domesticated rabbits kept in a single sex environment. Earlier this year a Russian team of scientific photographers took pictures of a male Antarctic fur seal fucking a male king penguin, and they aren't even the same species or even animalia grouping. This also clearly shows the flaw in your "fact" that only humans and dolphins have sex recreationally and not directly for the purpose of reproduction. Innumerable animals do it, humans, dolphins, apes (especially Bonobos monkeys who will never fight but will instead have sex with anything and anyone it encounters, entirely irrelevant of their gender or even whether they're an inanimate object or a living creature), lesbian rabbits... I could continue but I don't have the time or the compulsion and it would distract me from my main response to your post.

Onto AIDS. Anyone can get it. You don't need to be gay or have gay sex, women get it as easily as men, straight men as easily as gay men, and some children get born with it even. I don't really need to say any more about it, other than it is a terrible disease that can kill anyone under the right circumstances, and is not exclusive to homosexuals. You'd complain about having it too.

Now... your next points, if indeed they can be referred to as such, seem to me to be completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, and just you flailing out trying to justify your own crap and winding up making yourself sound worse. So I'm not going to dignify them with a reply.

Posted by: Ike May 3 2008, 11:33 PM

Hokkai No Oni, I know you were in a bit of a rage when posting that and you are finding that post very... stupid to be blunt, but calm down a bit, okay?

Posted by: shadow the hedgehog May 4 2008, 11:29 AM

blax: i am completely straight and i never formed a "bond" with my father. in fact, i hardly ever see my father. he's always overseas and stuff in korea or iraq or some other stoopid place.

personally, i find homosexuality a tad bit icky, but there's nothing wrong with it. God has a purpose for everything and i doubt He would create homosexuals just to damn them to hell. homosexuality probably helps control the population (this is just a guess). now that the human species has eliminated or weakened a large amount of diseases, there is less to stop the population from growing so large. please dont get a bunch of statistics to prove me wrong. just say if my idea sux or not. anyway, i am not for nor am i against homosexuality. people can do as they please as long as they are respectful.

Posted by: Hokkai no Oni May 4 2008, 05:05 PM

Calm down? I think not. All it takes for evil and ignorance to flourish and continue is for it to remain unopposed. I may have been angry when I posted, but I still consider it more intelligent and better researched by far than the tosh I was responding to, and more cogent too. Emotion flavours, it does not always impede, when it comes to making an argument.

If you can't debate with conviction and emotion it is pointless to debate at all, as you need to have a passion for the subject to want to write about it and for others to feel compelled to take note of your opinions. I make no apologies, and I stand absolutely by what I posted.

And that, my friend, is called integrity.

Posted by: Blax8192 May 6 2008, 04:38 PM

dude . . . you take the debates forum way to FUCKING personal, I can see some of your points, and where they explain some of my points and make them seem weak or irrelevant, but I hardly felt like muddling through your post with all /\ crap seeded all over the place. You spent as much time insulting me and making me seem like some sort of idiot as you did arguing your point. You're an okay person and all, but you're being an asshole. Plain and simple. Nothing more to it. now I'm going to quote your whole long post, tear out the insults and get down to the bare facts, watch with amusement how much it shrinks, and argue my points. WITHOUT insulting anybody. My posts may be smaller because I don't saturate them with insults, but they are far easier to read and are much more likely to win arguments.

I'm glad you at least refrained from political correctness with your insults though. At least something got through, but you picked it back up when you stated the odd fact or two.

Posted by: Zerxer May 6 2008, 05:38 PM

First of all, posting with italics and underline is annoyingly hard to read.

As if being homosexual is a disease..? In that case, being heterosexual is a disease too with no cure.


Anyone would when someone says some of the things you first said. Also, tone down on the language a bit. I don't appreciate seeing the F word on a forum made for youngsters, especially in all caps trying to stress it more. This goes for everyone else too. While it may not be a rule yet, you have to remember how young our members are. I don't care how mature you are.


Doesn't that pretty much kill your entire point then? I don't see how you can say that after saying that it's due to not having a bond with the father. If it doesn't have to necessarily be the father, then who else can it be? If they don't have a bond with the mother then doesn't that mean they'd still be less gay (according to your next point of being encouraged to hang out with girls as a child)?


I thought you were going to throw your points around without insulting anyone?


Eh? I can agree that homosexuals will prefer to hang out with girls and act like them but that doesn't mean that by hanging out with them a lot as a child that they'll become homosexual. Perhaps at an early age they somehow knew they were homosexual and that they preferred those tastes so they decided to hang out with the girls awhile but then there's the boys who do hang out with girls as a child and still turn out heterosexual. Also, growing up with only a mother does not mean you're not going to know how to act around boys and instantly only hang around girls when you get into school. That is also a pretty silly concept. If anything, you could say they'd hang out with boys even more because they're trying to fill that father-figure spot in their life.


I know that there's no way only Dolphins and Humans have sex for fun. Pretty much any animal could have sex for fun just because if they have genitalia, they can obviously become horny. Have you never had a dog hump your leg? Even female dogs do that. Obviously male dogs will since males are usually always horn-beasts but when a female dog is in heat, she'll gladly have sex for no reason, doesn't mean she wants puppies.


What? I still don't see how it's more common in homosexuals. If it were more common in homosexuals then your statement about anywhere in America having less people diagnosed with AIDs is wrong because there are tons of cities in America populated with tons of homosexuals. Perhaps the reason you think AIDs is more common in Key West is because it's an island therefore a good place to go to relax and vacation and whatnot and therefore more people are having unprotected sex which, if you didn't know, is what causes people to get AIDs, not from guys liking guys.


In case you can't tell, I don't really care about homosexuals. Like whoever you want to like. It's not like it's going to affect me like Blax apparently thinks by all his cringes. My best friend was bisexual and loved me and yet I still stayed his friend and went over to his house every weekend. Whatever. Yeah he's not my friend now though because I got sick of him being an ass most of the time and he'll of course deny ever being bi for that half a year and loving me but BaS certainly remembers it. lolnen

Posted by: Hokkai no Oni May 6 2008, 05:55 PM

I couldn't give two hoots about political correctness, and if you think my defence of homosexuals is based on my somehow being a bleeding heart, you're quite mistaken. I simply have a thing called common sense, which you appear to lack.

You obviously do not understand or recognise sarcasm. Much of the insults in my post were deeply sarcastic, and I wasn't actually insulting your father, but using a metaphor, one which you clearly didn't grasp. Also, one hundred miles is a long way at any time. The number of commuters or the length of a single road do not somehow change spacial quantity, rather, it is your perception based on these factors that alters it for you. A hundred miles is a hundred miles is a hundred miles, and nothing short of radically altering the Imperial measurement system will alter that fact. It is solid, it is immutable, and it is perpetual. And it is still a very long way.

I don't take debates too personal at all, I do however, throw my entire weight of conviction into one when I feel compelled to take part, and when I read your post I felt very compelled. Because, and I can't say this with nearly as much emphasis as I would like to, your post made you seem stupid more than anything I could ever write. Nobody smears a reputation quite so thoroughly and permanently as the person whose reputation it is. Your post was stupid, bigoted, and vile. That isn't an insult, and it's not sarcasm, that's merely observation that time.

You may find it amusing to take the insults out of my post, I don't mind, as I mentioned I was angry when I wrote it, and I'm not the slightest bit concerned about the feelings of anyone who has clearly no such concern themselves when it comes to people who go against their narrow-minded system of belief. I swore at you, and I don't care. I can handle being called an arsehole, I probably am for one thing, and secondly, it's usually when someone finds themselves being disagreed with by me that they call me it, which lessens the sting considerably.
I'll also just point out that you're a hypocrite, as you said quite clearly (which I at no point ever did) that you weren't going to insult me, and you have, many times in fact. Uncivilised? You're misinformed, if you look back through history, you'll see that as civilisation gets more sophisticated, the more derogatory words come to be, and the more perfectly legitimate words become known as insults and curses. Cunt is a good example of a previously harmless word, so are bastard, shit, crap, and dork. And gay, which is strangely appropriate. When I was growing up it still meant colourful and happy. As for civilised posting... hah... it is to laugh. Most forums are very uncivilised, and it is as a result of posting on internet forums for over ten years that I have lost my polite demeanour when posting. Illegible grunting is more likely to be accepted actually, but I try to post intelligently but liberally sprinkled with swear words to keep the attention of people uninclined towards reading lengthy, formal debates.

Your reply is a lazy one I might note, you've inserted a few lines into mine. You'll notice that mine responds to your one whilst being wholly original, with your post separated entirely at the top. Your way is much more difficult to read than mine, and more tedious to boot, as it forces people to re-read my post again despite knowing what it says, in order to find the small contributions you saw fit to make. So, mine is easier to read, and much more likely to win arguments, on the basis that you can't win an argument if nobody listens to your side of it, or in this case reads it. And the insults and sarcasm in mine attribute something of the satirical to my effort, which many people find amusing and enjoy reading. I did not merely rant and dribble, my insults were crafted very deliberately, and I've got an inbox full of PMs thanking me or agreeing with me, and only one complaining. I imagine you had none at all.

In response to boys having mostly female friends and growing up with the same attractions, that is so much stuff. I had mostly female friends at school, and I took advantage of it to observe their pubescent bodies developing from a close distance. If anything, you're better positioned to become the best possible heterosexual in that you're in close proximity to the female form, and less likely to pick up any unpleasant chauvinistic traits, such as belittling women or feeling inherently superior to them, or thinking of them purely in terms of sex.

Secretly gay fathers historically are more likely to tell their children before their partners or anyone else. And also, not a lot of people are as secret as they might think, due to lacking subtlety. If they were completely secret and unknown, I wouldn't have known such people exist. Nobody would.

By forcing me to look for proof about virile hermaphrodites, you have only helped me in reinforcing my point that it is natural. I neglected to mention the many, many examples of entire animals species that have both sets of sexual organs and can use both of them at will. As for virile human hermaphrodites, it would be worth your digging a little deeper into the subject, as they do exist, but the terms intersexual, supernumerary body parts, ambiguous genitalia, and gonadal mosaicism are sometimes employed instead of hermaphrodite.

When I said that those male baboons apparently lacked female organs, I wasn't saying it was assumed to be, I was again simply using a sarcastic turn of phrase, and your nitpicking my grammar is a wonderful example of grasping at straws. Those baboons gave birth via caesarian, with the intervention of human observers, as they lacked a vagina and contrary to what small children would have you believe, babies do not come out of arses unless something has gone hideously awry. Without such intervention they would have not been able to give birth to the infants gestating in them and both parent and offspring would have died as a result. This has been observed since the 1950s, and it's anybody's guess whether or not it was going on long before any people happened to notice it, though I would say that common sense and logic indicate that to be the case, unless you want to argue Heisenberg or Schrödinger and the Observer effect. I don't advise that, I have a doctorate in physics and am quite well versed in the matter and don't see how it applies in this case.

Recreational sex in animals... now that one is harder to prove on both sides. Both of our points of view are acceptable in the scientific community. However, when you consider that seals try mating with things that are not other seals, I think that transcends mere instinctual progenitative intent. No seal could ever imagine a penguin to be a viable mating partner in terms of reproducing. Futhermore, it has been mooted that since Antarctic fur seals hunt and eat penguins the sexual instinct was tied into the predatory killer instinct. They are both the most basic of instincts, and even humans can equate sex and violence as being one and the same.

As for Craig Stanford, his opinion is but one, and it is one that is much blown upon and disagreed with, at least insofar as the Royal Society stands on the matter. Bonobos are commonly accepted as fucking anything at any time. And considering that fucking anything at any time doesn't automatically mean they fuck females of the species as you assume, your comments and Stanford's observations account to little. Almost all male bonobos have gay sex with other males. How's that for homosexuality being natural? Plus, they'll have sex with trees, pieces of string, tires, humans, other animals, or anything they encounter, as unlike most animals which react cautiously or violently to something new (fight or flight), they try to fuck it. I can't help but wonder how much better a place the world was if people went around having sex with things rather than killing or otherwise destroying them.

America is not the world, something some Americans fail to recognise. Regardless of what the proportion of AIDS sufferers who are gay to straight are in the US, that is a cultural matter. On the African continent and in parts of South America, it is conservatively thought that 1 in 2 to 1 in 3 of all people have AIDs. The state of the African population is nothing short of tragic, and AIDs does not discriminate there. There are orphanages set up there that are filled to bursting with children who have AIDs and who lost both their parents to it. Homosexuality has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I don't think you're an okay person. I think you're an idiot, and a bigot. Political correctness be damned, all political correctness does is give a shield to people who once would have said straight out what moronic intolerant savages they were. If you can be honest enough to not be politically correct, which you claim to be, at least continue to be honest and admit that you're a slathering ignoramus with more teeth than brain cells and a view of the world that is entirely "uncivilised" and irrational, based on your own fears and consequent lashing out to disguise how terrified you are of things.

I've seen your comments elsewhere about black people, and on public execution too, and if I have time and passion enough I'll give them the same treatment. Vile ranting and barking at things and people because they are different or distasteful for you is evil. And before you dispute that fact, it's worth noting that Hitler, Stalin, Vlad the Impaler, and every other acceptedly evil figure in history were doing what you're doing, and believed absolutely that they were right and that people who disagreed were the idiots. If your arguments are based on religious teachings, it's also worth noting that the current pope is a former nazi... speaks volumes I believe. The only difference is that those historically accepted to be evil were left unchecked, eventually even supported by other people, and moved onto actually acting on their bigotry and fear to the harm of others. That's why I cannot quietly ignore your posts, and why I refuse to be polite and considerate about them. If your arguments are based on religious teachings, it's also worth noting that the current pope is a former nazi... speaks volumes I believe.

You disgust me, and I have the integrity and honesty to say as much.

Posted by: Balmungmp5 May 6 2008, 07:33 PM

I'm not gonna go into some real depth here but there are a few things i thought i would point out.

First of all the word God has been thrown around a lot here. I'm pretty sure it clearly does say same sex marriage is bad in the bible but, that applies to one religion and i think this debate topic is meant of the U.S. (tell me if I'm wrong since I'm known to be wrong) which I'm pretty sure isn't a theocracy so why is it an issue?

I also think it's funny that the political party trying to prevent gay marriage is the political party that's supposed to believe in a less powerful central government...

Personally gay marriage doesn't bother me. why? because it had nothing to do with me. It doesn't really involve anybody except the people wanting to get married and who ever marries them. I just don't see why it's the states job to keep them from getting wed. (haha maybe parents instead)

It just seems like there are holes in the whole thing...If anyone wants to fill them for me be free. It just seems to me like Christian ideals and rules are leaking into the government which is pretty much what the United States was created to get away from...

Posted by: Wymsy May 6 2008, 07:44 PM

I'm fairly sure the debate topic is just talking about gay marriage in general.

That said, I have absolutely no problems with gay marriage. Two people of the same gender getting married does not affect me in any way, and isn't even my business. There isn't really any good reason to ban it. A church wanting to not marry a gay couple is fine, wanting to outlaw gay marriage itself completely is moronic in my opinion. If some people don't like gay marriage, then they might as well outlaw twinkies too, because I don't like them.

Posted by: Balmungmp5 May 6 2008, 07:52 PM

well i wasn't sure of how much it was an issue in other necks of the woods so just apply my last post to the U.S. and ignore it unless it applies to your country too.

anyways yeah i have no problem with it. Although i'm not interested in it it doesn't mean it affects me. so why fix what isn't broken?

Posted by: Zerxer May 6 2008, 09:14 PM

Well aren't there things that married couples get to do differently such as how their taxes are affected and whatnot? I'd assume a lot of people in the government don't think gays should be able to properly wed and get all the same treatment as if a man and woman were the ones getting married in terms of being able to file jointly and stuff. Just my idea/opinion though.

Posted by: Swordsalmon May 6 2008, 10:16 PM

Pope Benedict XVI was a member of the Hitler Youth, which was mandatory for all male children ages 14+. No-one really had a choice, though he and his father were opposed to Nazism, but that would've likely caused execution.

Now, I'll add some personal stuff into this. I am much closer to my mother than father, and most friends I make are female. Most boys hate me. I have a desire to "cross-dress", as people say. The first person I really loved was male. Does that make me gay? No. Love is an unusual feeling that applies to everyone. No one understands it fully, really. However, I know it can be "connected" with sexuality, which is depending on the individual. Some people are homosexual, some are heterosexual, some are lucky bisexual. I'm a heterosexual, as I take interest in females. The love I held for that one young man...it was not sexual in any way. Love and sexuality can be intertwined, but they are also separate.

Now, onto marriage between the same gender. I'm in full and total support of it. If two guys or gals fall in love and desire marriage, why should they be prohibited? You could cite religious reasons, but that's dubious at best. For example, many Catholics claim that the Bible is against it. False, as any claims are either thinly implied or have different meanings. Sodom and Gommorah is oft-cited as an example of against homosexuality. Go and forget that the people wished to rape the visiter, along with the incest (Which is squicky). Other claims can be interpeted in several ways. If two heterosexual men "lie together" then the Bible would say it's wrong. It says nothing of two homosexuals in the same act. Thank goodness for reading the entire Bible twice, eh?

That's basically what I think. I'm awefully tired, so things might have not come out the way they were supposed to be.

Posted by: Hokkai no Oni May 7 2008, 01:26 PM

Tired or not, it makes a lot more sense than most of the posts in this debate Swordsalmon. And you're right that love and sexuality are not at all the same... many people have sex with no feelings for who they're doing it with, or even negative feelings, and it is possible to love different people in different ways. Sometimes that can be hard to see... I once had a friend, a girl, who I thought I loved romantically but came to realise that it was more the kind of affection you get between close siblings and particular friends. Which is unfortunate, since she did love me romantically, but that's another story.

I fail to understand how showing affection for someone can be illegal, and marriage to me is the ultimate expression of love and affection. How can that be denied? It doesn't make much sense to me at all when people stand up against it. Politicians are meant to serve people, and most religions supposedly espouse love towards others and peace... and yet, many of them try and ban people from being married on the basis of whether their genitals are both internal or external, rather than one of each. Why don't they ban people getting married because they're drunk and in Las Vegas, or for the sake of some sort of business arrangement, or political alliance? Those "marriages" are more obviously wrong to me than any that come from mutual feelings of love.

Posted by: Aeroy May 7 2008, 03:34 PM

Haha I saw that too, and posted it at FGI. It got 30 posts in an hour and got me a medal for making the admin lol

Anyway, great posts, helped me blow 15 minutes

Posted by: Balmungmp5 May 7 2008, 04:28 PM

yeah i can see that. but only part of it. I can see why the state has the right to ban the couple from getting the pther privileges of being married like taxes and stuff but the government probably shouldn't have the right to ban the marriage all together.

Then it just comes down to the political leader's religious background it seems and with an overwhelming number of one religion it seems like it will be really hard to go anywhere.

For the people here that are opposed to same-sex marriage, what is the main thing that makes you think it shouldn't happen?

Posted by: GDeitz Jun 6 2008, 09:26 AM

I reeeaaally hate to bring up dead threads, but this is one of my major political issues, so I feel I need to.

OK, first of all, Homosexuality is caused by some lack of hormones in your brain or something. My sister explained it to me. The point is, it's not preventable or a choice. That "bonding with you father" crap is just junk. 40% of all marriages fail(yes, it's scary) and 90% of them, the children are far more attached to the mother. Using that logic, 36% of all males must be gay! No, that's over one thind and it's not nearly that common. Plus, my dad left when I was young and neither me nor my brother are gay. NOTE: those were real statistics I used(at least in '05 , I would imagine those numbers would go up, though.) Gay people can't choose. If they love each other, then THEY LOVE EACH OTHER! Just the same way as a normal straight couple. Does it really matter who you are in love with? Y'know, a fact I'm glad about, 50 years ago, it was seen the exact same way for whites and blacks to get married. Doesn't that seem silly? I pray this will fade into obscurity.


That being said, I will concede a bit. This is kinda gross, so stop reading if you... you get the point!

Still, sex and love are somewhat separate things.

Posted by: SlipKnoT Jun 8 2008, 01:20 AM

For it all the way. Heterosexuals and homosexuals should be treated as complete equals in society, and if heterosexuals can marry, homosexuals should be able to marry too. I long for the day when bigoted ideals no longer interfere with the lives of citizens.

You're not racist if you defend yourself in a fight, you're racist for saying shit like this.

Posted by: Shade Jun 14 2008, 12:15 PM

I personally think that Marriage is a union of two people who are in love. If those two people happen to be homosexual then so be it. What those people do behind closed doors is no business of mine or any other person, just as its no of their business what you or I do in the privacy of our home.

In this day and age seeing someone who is gay is no big deal. Odds are you know at least one person who is gay, weather you know it or not.

Posted by: Shoutai Jun 15 2008, 07:39 AM

okay... if gay people want to get married... go right ahead... as long as its not with me...

I personally think that its....(gets flame shield ready) wrong...
Its against the course of nature, I think...
Man+man=no babies(NATURALLY)
woman+woman=no babies(NATURALLY)
Man+Woman=Babies(NATURALLY)

thats all I have to say or else Ill be hanged... =x

Posted by: Akane Jun 15 2008, 08:55 PM

There's nothing wrong with Christianity and there's nothing wrong with same-sex marriages, or homosexual people in general. They're the same as us. Who cares about who they love? What matters is the fact that you should be allowed to marry whomsoever you love. Unless you're a crazy evangelist who heeds by everything the Bible says, you shouldn't have a problem accepting this. It's basically the same as a man and a woman getting married.

I'm part of the Gay-Straight Alliance at my school. People make a lot of cracks about it. It's not cool, or acceptable. People may not change, but you and your opinions can.

Posted by: Shoutai Jun 15 2008, 09:29 PM

Its a lot easier to crush my pride with a Bulldozer... >.>

It is NOT the same as man and woman... if it were the same, would we even be discussing this here on this thread?
dont think so...
If it were the same, would it have the discrimination it has(not that I support it)?

I see it as an Unatural thing... I cant see it going through the course of nature... simple as that... >.>

... impressed Im still alive for saying this.... =x

I was once banned from a forum for saying this... =x

Posted by: Akane Jun 15 2008, 09:39 PM

Look here, it shouldn't matter to you if a man and a man or a woman and a woman want to get together and marry each other. You're not invited to their wedding, are you? Life itself is unnatural, please don't drag that in. Sorry if I was being rude.

Posted by: Shoutai Jun 15 2008, 09:48 PM

hmm...
look... I have homosexual friends...
and people can be if they want... People have the liberty of doing whatever they want...
What I mean is, I have my opinion on this... and my friends know what my opinion is...

ANd Life is not unnatural... we go through a natural course of life, being it:

Born
Live
Procreate
Die

thats pretty much it cutting all the details... thats pretty natural to me, no?

and dun worry about being rude, I was expecting this since the begining... =D

Posted by: Akane Jun 15 2008, 09:55 PM

What if people don't decide to procreate? Life is a lot more complex than that, although I'm a simpleton at most times.

Things started out by coincidence. Without this coincidence, could we really evolve? We could have stayed as Neanderthals without that one genetic and coincidental change. The animals on this planet could have been born without reproduction organs, and we'd have all died out. But we didn't, because of the coincidence that created our human features, ones that later evolved into what we are now.

But that's off topic. Really, life is full of weird things. People do find homosexuals weird at first, but later learn to accept them and the fact that they are still human beings and have the right to marriage.

Posted by: Shoutai Jun 15 2008, 09:59 PM

they have the right to do whatever they want...
If they want to stick broomsticks on their noses and call themselves peter pan they can... and that goes for any human being...

but I do have my opinion...

and I like what u started discussing... Ill open a thread about it so we can discuss it on-topic... =D

Posted by: Akane Jun 15 2008, 10:01 PM

Opinions. You need to be ready to defend them at all costs. XD I try to at most times. But one thing: if you are offended by something like homosexuality, be careful about how you say it. Most forums are against homophobics and the like. Not saying you are one.

Posted by: Shoutai Jun 15 2008, 10:07 PM

no no...
Im not offended at all By homosexuals... Like Ive said, I have friends who are...Including my GF's Best friend is ONe and hes allways around...

and I agree... I try to always be ready to defend my Opinions even at the worst ocasions... =x

Im running out of things to say... Thinking and Typing too much in the past hour...

Let me take a break.. ehhehe

Posted by: Akane Jun 15 2008, 10:08 PM

Yup, it's eleven here.

So, are you okay with the idea of same-sex marriages?

Posted by: Shoutai Jun 15 2008, 10:17 PM

well...

yes and no...

I dont support it...
But I support friends decisions...

Kinda of a Paradoxical situation huh?

Posted by: Akane Jun 15 2008, 10:24 PM

Lolz. It's hard for people to change their opinions, but hey, nobody's forcing you. Just an insight. Your decision, opinion, your brain. People always support their friends and family.

Posted by: Mister Sa Jul 7 2008, 02:49 PM

Wow. I can't believe I never noticed this thread!

I agree. I hate people like that.



Bravo. Amen.



I support same sex marriage! I'm not conservative at ALL about ANYTHING, especially THIS.

My state, California, JUST legalized SAME SEX marriage, AGAIN! I'm so excited about that! C:

And I know this is kinda old but to that person ( brax what ever I think ) who was says it's based on the enviroment you were raised in ... I contradict that. I'm a lesbian raised in strict, portuguese-catholic house hold with a sexist big brother and homosexual-hating mother.

And I credit that person who says it's a chemical thing in your brain, because it is. Chemical imbalances is what I heard it is caused by.

I say some people need to get their heads out of their asses, specifically all those homosexual-hating straight people. Stop the discrimination and just learn to accept it. :C

Posted by: Aeroy Jul 7 2008, 04:14 PM

heh thanks for bumping this i forgot how awesome hokkai's posts in this thread were lol

Posted by: Mister Sa Jul 7 2008, 06:31 PM

I needed to reply, that Blax pissed me off. :/ I still can't believe I never noticed this thread. xD

Posted by: BlackScizor Jul 10 2008, 11:38 PM

Although im a christian im fine with same sex marige if thats what the person whants to do

Posted by: Hai Jul 12 2008, 12:56 AM

Yeah same homosexuality is not at all unnatural and they should have just as much rights as Heterosexuals. what blows my mind is that people still think that homosexuality is not a choice I mean how can you wven say that??? its so obvious it isnt. and another thing I think people stereotype gays because when they hear the word "lesbian" they automatically think :Tall red haired lady with little or no breasts!!! but thats not true at all even tho some lesbians look like that(they still deserve equal rights) definately not ALL of them do and you its vice versa with gay men (the Appearence part not the equal rights part)

Posted by: shadow the hedgehog Jul 13 2008, 09:17 PM

homosexuality isnt a choice. i guess there are some people who choose purposely do homosexual actions. with that exception, homosexuality has to do with the brain. i think it was stated earlier in this topic that it is caused by a missinng protein or something.

Posted by: Shoutai Jul 18 2008, 01:45 PM

yes pumpkin King...
I know people will hate me for this, But it has been proven that homosexual Dogs have somethings missing or not functioning properly in their brains.
That has never been proven on Humans, since human experiments arent allowed and on corpses it doesnt work...

But I do believe it has a connection.
Like I already said it once on this topic, I have gay friends, and I got nothing against them. Im not gonna pop their caps just cuz they are homosexuals...
But I have my thought about it... Both as a scientist and as a Human being.

oh... quick edit:
This protein/vitamin defficiency(is that how u spell it?) can be either there ever since the person is born, or it can develpo itself as the person grows.
Thats why some people "Find" out they like the same sex when they are teens and stuff and some are since the moment they start crawling. =D

Quick edit 2:
Just so I wont get killed, Im not saying its a disease. Just lack of proteins/vitamins.... >.>

Posted by: Blax8192 Jul 25 2008, 11:54 AM

Bigoted ideals . . . you mean like . . . equality? I never thought of that as bigoted myself, I thought that was what America stood for . . . If you decide to carry on this discussion PM me and I'll give you examples and show you exactly what I'm talking about.

If anybody else thinks I'm racist because I want equality, PM me, It's a standing offer to anyone.

Hate to dig this crap up after what . . . a month, and it may be a bit off topic, but I'm getting to it. All in good time.

Please elaborate on how a belief that all men were created and should be treated equal makes me racist? Are you implying your race is better than mine?

That's the kind of crap people go through every day! It's BS! Get over it! People don't just sit there all day and think of little things to say to people of another race to piss them off! If somebody is going to be racist, they're going to be racist, but it goes both ways

I'll even share a few short examples:
Black history month. Not racist.
If we had a white history month, guess what? we'd be racist

Black only colleges. Not racist
White only colleges: they had those once and there were riots until they opened for everybody (equality)

Blacks only college funds: not racist.
White people sure as hell can't have those though because that's racist . . .

It goes both ways
And that's that.


Now for the topic at hand:

My best friends mom had two kids, then became a lesbian. So that's established that that can definitely happen, and does.

You know what . . . I change my mind . . . go for it people, From here on out I'm just going to think of homosexuality as natural selection waiting to happen . . .

@shoutai: You're talking like scurvy, right? lack of vitamin . . . C I think, it could have been D but I don't think so . . . *wanders off to google it and never comes back*

Posted by: Pumpkin King Jul 25 2008, 12:03 PM

white people are stoopid
^ well racism is mostly associated with white poeple even though it happens all of the time in almost every race.
story time!
a woman i know always makes racial remarks about white people, but nobody cares, cuz she's hispanic. however, when a white person called her a "wet-back," she exploded.
the end.

so that im not completely off topic, i will state that homosexuality=ok. it controls the population. they should have more gay people in china.

Posted by: RedGardevoir Jul 25 2008, 12:16 PM

hmmm gay asian that would be wierd but they all are kinda perverted anyways

pesonally i don't have a problem with gay people i have friends that are gay or bi-sexual i think their cool and nice it's not like they're another species or disease ridden freaks i *heart* gay people they're nice *mostly*

Posted by: Wymsy Jul 25 2008, 02:00 PM

So she's either bisexual or was just lying in the first place (there are homosexuals that become pressured to live "normal" lives as a heterosexual). Homosexuals, unless sterile, can still produce children. They just have an attraction to the same gender.


So are you in some way implying that homosexuals are inferior?

Posted by: Blax8192 Jul 25 2008, 02:02 PM

In the fact that they are unable to breed by natural means and natural selection tends to eliminate those members of a species that is unable to breed.

Posted by: Wymsy Jul 25 2008, 02:09 PM

.... What? No matter what, there will still be homosexual people and people who just don't want to reproduce. Natural selection is more to eliminate the members of a species that is unable to survive and pass on their genes. Though we as humans living in a world full of technology are not very affected by it. People who have certain diseases or carry a gene for it can still reproduce, because of some kind of modern medicine that would allow them to live and not be killed by said disease or whatever. If we were stripped of all of our technology, it would be a lot different (a person like me probably wouldn't survive well due to being very sickly; modern medicine fixes that). And I already said homosexuals can breed by normal means (provided they aren't sterile), they just merely have an attraction to the same gender.

Posted by: Shoutai Jul 27 2008, 06:54 PM

hmm... how are two men going to have babies?
adopting? thats not reproducing... thats just having some1 else's kid... =x
How are two women going to reproduce? adopting is also the option...

now, the fact that gay people(homosexuals is a big word to write) dont feel attracted to the oposite sex, kinda makes it hard to have SECKS to reproduce dontcha think?

of course, men can donate sperm and have the baby when its born and woman can GET sperm and have the baby when its born... but thats just not natural is it? =x

Not to mention, a Kid that grows up having 2 mommies and 2 daddies is kinda...

anyway....
The vitamin deficiency is D if Im not mistaken... I read about this research quite a while ago, and I havent touched my psyche books in about a year so... =x

Posted by: Wymsy Jul 27 2008, 07:10 PM

"Breed by normal means" means have sex with the opposite gender to produce a child. And of course it's hard for a homosexual to have sex with the opposite gender.

Posted by: empoleon dynamite Jul 28 2008, 02:11 PM

Whell some parts of the world are already very overpopulated. Maybe this is Gods way of decreasing population.

Posted by: Pumpkin King Jul 28 2008, 02:14 PM

^ that's what i told my health teacher.

Posted by: Shoutai Jul 30 2008, 01:56 PM

ok... I kinda refuse to accept that argument for the simple facth that I dont think its GOD's "work"...
I will not post why on this topic because of personal reasons... if u wanna discuss this, PM me or add me on msn...

Posted by: Shade Jul 30 2008, 02:00 PM

Going to have to agree with him on this one. This has nothing to do with god.. or what ever hierarchy you believe in. This just has something to do with what human desire

Posted by: Fallen Archangel Aug 1 2008, 04:33 PM

Homosexuality is not a choice, nor is it a disorder. It's actually psychological.

There, happy?

Posted by: LittleShadowPokemon Aug 2 2008, 04:45 PM

^ You said it all. Why can't things like that be simple? There's research proving that point. Also, I'm not very religious, so I think all the flaming the gays for religious reasons is just plain stupid. <-- Opinion. A lot of my family members are gay/lesbian but they're still awesome, and a lot nicer than most are to me. Plus, when I see two boys actually love each other, it's beautiful. There needs to be more love in the world, not hate. That's something, isn't it?

Posted by: Camerin Aug 2 2008, 04:48 PM

To me its wierd and wrong, If you love the same sex
DON'T call it Marraige

Posted by: Raven Aug 3 2008, 12:17 AM

That's an ignorant view to have regarding the subject. Care to expound on your thoughts rather than tossing out the (obvious but unintentional) flamebait? [Not an official warning, by the way.]

What is so "wrong" about gay marriage? I really don't know. It's not hurting you in any way if it's allowed (for that matter, one's sexual preference shouldn't be doing this either), so what is the problem?

Also, even if it is Family Guy, I must quote it: "Why can't two gay people who love each other get married when two straight people who hate each other can?" (something like that, Lois said it)

Posted by: LittleShadowPokemon Aug 3 2008, 12:49 AM

I remember that quote, Raven! I was thinking of it too, and my parents are like that. They absolutely hate each other and have trapped each other in the marriage. It's ridiculous.

Besides, here's a funner view on pro-gay: Straight is boring. People have been doing that since Adam and Eve, literally.

Posted by: johnrichard1991 Aug 9 2008, 05:48 AM

I'm totally pro gay marrige.
I'm a homosexual myself, and it gets me mad that some people think of this as a brain defect.

I know, that's just their opinion, but I'm still gonna gat mad, sorry

Posted by: SlipKnoT Aug 11 2008, 02:21 PM

QFT.


I believe Wymsy already addressed this: she's probably bisexual. That, or she's always been a homosexual in denial, just living the expected life of a heterosexual woman for whatever reason. You can't really prove the statement anyway, so I really have no reason to believe you.


Fucking racist.



Quoted For Great Truth.


It's not weird, it's just people being who they are. It's people that think like you that keep society from advancing further.

Posted by: Shoutai Aug 12 2008, 10:15 AM

wow wow wow... a litlte bit more then expected...
Lets go..:

1 - i did not say that if u dont have babies ure not normal.. I was just showing something really simple... can a man and a man have sex and a baby be born?
2 - sure, not everyone goes through that cycle... and they are not weird for that... but stop and think about it... u were born, u grew, someday you will have children, then ull die... its simple as that...
Gay people cant have children naturally, wich in my Opinion isnt natural. And I say that in a religious matter...
3 - are you saying heterosexuals and homosexuals are equal... i can partially agree... we are all still human beings... but some thing, are not equals... read my other post about the protein deficiency and ullknow what im talking about...
4 - dont even try to compare straight vs gays with white vs black man... thats just wrong! black people can still be gay... so can white people... i dont even wanna get into this subject here so not to get off-topic...
5 - I dont need a gramma techer dude... I spelled secks earlier for the simple purpose of making this thread a little lighter... this were getting tense... and still are... but if u really are so offended by the way I spell things, 7H47'5 JU57 700 |34D!!1!1!!!11oneoneoneeleven!!!

Posted by: Wymsy Aug 13 2008, 05:20 PM

Your arguments and just everything you post in general look better because you bothered to use proper grammar. Some people have a hard time reading mangled up English. You don't have to use proper grammar, but using proper grammar will make you look more professional and orderly and less like some random 9 year old.

Posted by: Shoutai Aug 13 2008, 11:36 PM

I understand you perfectly... But people don't bother to think that not everyone in this forum is american...
Im Brazilian, and I haven't practiced my "proper" English in a while...
as I have gotten many complaints about the way a write() I'll try to start writing properly...
thanks for the heads-up wymz... and sorry for the off-topic post. ^^''

Posted by: Damian Aug 14 2008, 12:02 AM

ok i didnt bother reading anyone else's cuz a lot of them were.....im sorry but ignorant
if gays wanna marry go for it!
seriously! making people scared for being gay is wrong!!! that should be considered a sin
my best friend tried goin to church and praying an all that ......but she didnt stop being attracted to girls
its not a psychological,emotional, or whatever else you cooked up problem
its a gift!!! did u ever stop and think...."mayb they see the world a different way?
in my opinion if gays were to run the world......I BET THERE WOULD BE WORLD PEACE!
gay peace but peace
they wouldnt want stright people to stop having fun an live
an we shouldnt niether cuz when it comes down to it....
who the hell cares? theyre not stopping you from being a pain in the ass
in fact ....some of them like it

Posted by: berettapunk Aug 14 2008, 12:25 AM

i believe in god. im more of an agnostic/christian/celt. im a straight male.

i am against any marriage. gay or straight. mostly because marriage in modern days is no longer a private affair between 2 people. but instead now the government has their nose in every inch of it. marriage itself is a church issue. im fine if a church okays gay marriage. thats the churches decision. not mine. not the governments. to be honost i think that anyone that wants the government to ban gay marriage or legalize it are asking for trouble. because allowing the government to set any rules on marriage is just opening the door for the government to decide who gets married to who. i have many gay friends. i have dated and been with several of my lesbian friends. i dont care if it is a choice or not. i have no right to tell them how to live. that is their own decision. i have many friends who are gay and go to church regularly. in my honost opinion if people stop focusing on their differences and being so flagerent about it(im not just talking about gays, i also mean the people who flaunt how straight they are or how christian they are or whatever) then people would get along better. what everyone forgets is we are all human beings. nothing more, nothing less. we are all animals in the sense we bleed, we hunger, we thirst, we crave to mate, we wish to find love. i dont see the point in fighting with people because we have a different belief.

let me make this crystal clear! i am not on either side of the argument. i believe the government wants us to fight over this. that way they can gain more control over our lives. there is no point in bickering like children about this. i have met bigots on both sides of the argument. no one is perfect. all im saying is we need to get over it and stop acting like one side of the fight is better than the other because it is not. christians of all people should know better because it says in their bible they should love everyone regardless. both sides should lead by example and stop this bs fighting. there has been blood needlessly spilled over this. all it comes down to is one side fearing the other really. fear is a product of ignorance. ignorance can be fixed if you are willing to learn.

im against any government sanctioned marriages. i believe its a church issue only and the government has no right banning or condoning straight or gay marriages.

Posted by: Jeffrey Aug 16 2008, 09:04 AM

I was about to state my opinion on the topic, but then I realized that gays marrying one another doesn't leave the slightest bit of an impression upon my life. For some people, marriage is happiness. Either that, or they simply wish to be on equal grounds with straight couples. Honestly, I don't care about the reasoning - if something doesn't affect my life personally, I can't bring myself to form a bias for one opinion over another.

Let them eat (wedding) cake. It doesn't hurt any of us, and makes some people alot happier. What's wrong with happiness? It's not as if it's degrading the "sacred" institution of marriage, or anything. I'm pretty sure that marriage has devolved into a mere social obligation and, honestly, sort of a joke since the advent of the Elvis drive-thru chapels, and such. Straight people get married all the time and divoce months later - anything that was once sacred in marriage is now simply laughable and somewhat pathetic. The degradation of marriage owes more to the straight population than the gay one.

Posted by: Carmani Oct 2 2008, 09:26 PM

Dude, my oppinion is simple:

If the guys or the girls wants to marriage each other what's the matter??

I'll not sleep in the same bad as they will so i have nothing to do with that rsrsrs.

Let the people be happy and became the power and the happiness of the universe. They can join in a harmony that many couples does not have nowadays..

Romantic isnt it?? hu hu..

Posted by: Pixie Feb 20 2009, 02:18 PM

I believe that they should be able to get married because everyone has the right to marry the person they love, no matter if they are the same sex or not. Seriously, them getting married is not hurting anyone or anything so why not? And to say that it's wrong because this so-called GOD says so is quite ridiculous. Not everyone believes in "god" and therefore they should not have to suffer because of people having their noses stuck up some religion's butt


that's my opinion....

Posted by: Typhlosion Feb 22 2009, 08:18 AM

I believe that all humans are equal, regardless of age, gender, skin color or sexual preference. If you wish to get married to another of the same gender, go for it. You have every right to marry some one of the same gender as a straight couple has to get married.

Gay people are human too. Never forget that.
They are equal to you as you are to them or, any one else.

Posted by: November 11 Feb 22 2009, 08:52 AM

Whoever wants to get married, get married.
I'm not one of them-- divorce is too expensive. I'm such a pessimist 8D
though more and more het couples are having something like civil partnership ceremonies, if my memory hasn't failed me, because the divorce is so much more simple.

Admittedly I'm confused about the "no children" thing.. the planet's overpopulated anyway q:
Probably just as well that I am personally for adoption- giving an "unwanted" child a family and a home instead of working to make a new one just so that strangers can say "he's got your eyes."
But of course I understand why people would want children of their own xD' that's just how I feel about it.

not necessarily- gay people are human, not magical q:

Posted by: Calvin Feb 22 2009, 09:54 AM

Well, my take on this is that homosexuals can be allowed to marry, just not under God. Homosexuality, as previously mentioned, is against Christianity, and marriage (I believe) was invented by the Catholic church as a symbol of bondage between two of God's people. Frankly, I believe even atheistic marriage is hypocrisy. So if you want to get married, don't do it in a church with the minister talking about bondage for eternity. Anyway, that's my belief. If you don't think so, all the best to you.

Posted by: Twilight Spectrum Feb 22 2009, 04:16 PM

I somewhat agree with Calvin. Marriage is not solely a religious union, it's controlled by the government. Churches should not be forced to give their blessings to homosexual couples. Some people actually get married "under god", but not officially under the government. So there are two very separate versions of marriage, and as much as I wish gays could have both, few churches will side with them. So let them marry under the government, but leave under god a choice of the churches.

And I don't think any atheist couple in their right minds would get married in a church. :P

Posted by: SR Meganium Forme Feb 22 2009, 08:05 PM

o.0

I can personally identify with Shoutai's opinion...
And I'm a lesbian.

...

Most of his posts seem true to me.
I don't care if I disagree, I still think his opinions do apply in certain situations.

So go ahead, kill me.

Posted by: Lestat Apr 9 2009, 08:58 PM

well After reading what the 5 poster on page 1 had said i don't see much point in putting my two cents worth in but I'm going to anyways

I'm for gay marriage and I agree with much of what said fifth poster had said. There is nothing wrong with being gay or bi people don't like it because its not normal. Well hack most stuff now a days is just a matter of opinion but because people are so anal about things they've convinced themselves that what they think is right therefore pass they're opinions on they're kids on they're friends and so on.

Its funny but I heard a saying and find it to be pretty true. I'm going sane in a crazy world.

Posted by: Cooltrainer Benji Apr 10 2009, 06:30 PM

Honestly, I don't get the big deal.

Who cares if "God" says it's wrong? Christains forget one VERY important thing: God did NOT write the bible. Man did. Of course man is gonna say homosexuality is wrong. We've probably had homophobia since the beginning of time. I honestly think we need to get out of this "stone age" way of thinking. Because, it doesn't make sense to me how we claim to have come a far way; yet, things like this can bring us right back to square one. Seriously, if gays want to be miserable like the rest of you, let them. It's their life they're ruining. Not yours.

As for which parent you're raised around affecting your sexuality, that's BS. I'm a F2M transgender. Meaning, I was born a female but think like a male. I also LOVE girls (though, I've dated a guy a time or two) Get this: My dad was NEVER around. I was raised by my mom. Hmmm.... seems I should be dressed in frilly clothes and dating boys? I'm not. Also, sex has nothing to do with it. That's just silly. Personally, I hate sex. Either way. Yet, I still date girls. Gays aren't gay for sex. Again, that's silly. That's like saying straight people are straight for sex. They're not. They're born that way.

If gays were gay for sex, I wouldn't of known I was different when I was in THIRD grade. I don't think a third grader stares at a girl in her row and thinks "Oh, what I would give to bang her."

I didn't read this entire thread, FYI. So, if I repeated things, my apologies.

EDITED TO ADD: Also, gay people have been around for AGES. They just weren't as open about it back then. So, I highly doubt the fact that sex is so "cool" these days has ANYTHING to do with it.

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD: I also just read Jeffery's post (sorry if I misspelled it) I pretty much agree with him. Marriage isn't sacred anymore as it is. Look at Britteny Spair's (sp? I don't listen to her pfft) five minute wedding. And the divorce statistics lately. Heck, these days, parents are letting their IMMATURE sixteen year olds do it. If marriage was EVER sacred, it isn't anymore.

Posted by: Saya Apr 11 2009, 09:31 PM

Cooltrainer Benji said it way better than I could have. -High fives Benji.-

Posted by: KaiReddtail Apr 12 2009, 02:39 PM

I am for gay marriage.


Don't give me the religion stuff. I'm an atheist and I can still marry. Although I totally respect religion, where I live there is freedom of religion, which means your religion can't make the rules about marriage.

Also, the children arguement is invalid as well. I plan to marry my significant other, and I am childfree. Which means no children, ever. And my marriage will still be legal and valid.

There is simply no good reason not to allow gay marriage. It's about love between two people.
My general philosophy for life is: if it;s not hurting anyone, go ahead. Gay marriage is not hurting anyone.

Usually my agruements are a little more expansive, but it looks like this has been well debated. If anybody wants to agure a point or have me explain, I will. I just thought short and to the point would be better

Posted by: Saya Apr 12 2009, 08:18 PM

I completely agree with you there. There isn't a good reason to deny anyone the right to marry. Since Iowa and Vermont have legalized same-sex marriages, there has been a new commercial about how "A storm is gathering" and "rights are being taken away from heterosexual couples" which is complete bullshit. How is same-sex marriage taking away rights from heterosexual couples? And can you seriously tell me that denying two people the right to marry isn't taking away THEIR rights?

Posted by: eagleblackbelt Apr 12 2009, 08:38 PM

Personally, if they would take away the word, "marriage," I would have a lot better feeling towards that. I really don't care if guys want to f**k other guys or if girls want to do the same to girls, but please don't call their union marriage. Personally, I feel it degrades the word of marriage for heterosexual couples.

I am against gays being allowed into the Boy Scouts however. I feel that it is an appropriate safety measure made for the interst of boys involved. If they want to be involved in a similar organization, why don't they form a "Gay Scouts" or something. Just don't infiltrate us.

Posted by: Nathan Graves Apr 12 2009, 09:17 PM

How does it degrade the word of marriage, exactly?
And 'safety measure'? lol wut...



You definitely need to explain yourself. A lot.

Posted by: Pokii Apr 12 2009, 09:22 PM

Yeah, because every gay boy is attracted to every other boy on Earth, right?

Posted by: Saya Apr 12 2009, 10:26 PM

The thought that gay boys are somehow infiltrating your "pure" pool of boy scouts is a laughable notion, at best. I highly doubt that you hit on every girl you see, and it's the same for any homosexual person. They are normal citizens, and to think of them as anything less is just ridiculous.

Besides, I highly doubt that very many people are going to join Boy Scouts to find f*ckbuddies. Boy Scouts has a purpose and the vast majority of people who want to join are going to join for that purpose.

Posted by: Tiamat Apr 12 2009, 10:53 PM

I look at this and I think people are missing something, at least for those in the US:

All men are equal in the eye of the law.

What does this mean? It means that everyone, regardless of sexuality, gender, race, or creed should be treated the same under the law. Marriage is, at least in the modern United States, an insitution of law. After all, you don't need a fancy religious ceremony to get married--you just need to sign papers and take oaths before a legal-type-person (I'd love the actual name of the profession--it... eludes me). Thus, you get benefits! Yay! But then you look at legal unions--hmm... same amount of legal crap, next to no benefits.

y helo thar social injustice, how r u today?

Not having universial* marriage is therefore, against the United States Constitution. Yes, the same document we practically worship. Does it matter that it's not what the Framers intended? After all, they didn't expect women or black men to be part of that "all men are created equal" thing. Very few of our interpretations are what the Framers intended. How is this any different? By instituting universal marriage, we are further progressing towards the American ideal--a place where everyone is identical in the eyes of the law, regardless of who they are. And while we might fall short, we should continue to try, so that everyone can rest assured that they will be protected from injustice while in the courtroom, at the very least. *hopes she makes sense; it's very late*

*Two consenting adults, factoring in incest laws. Yes, those exist.

Posted by: Dys Tuvai Apr 13 2009, 10:09 AM

The way I see it, there is no reason why homosexual couples shouldn't get the same benefits heterosexual couples do - just like there is no reason why homosexual couples get all the flak they are getting from ignorant sods. Love is love, attraction is attraction, regardless of gender, biology or anything else really.

Posted by: KaiReddtail Apr 13 2009, 01:03 PM

I agree Tiamat. Oh, and by the way, their titles are "Justice of the Peace."

Eagleblackbelt:

"Degrades?" How? Please do explain. It's about love, it very simple. It doesn't mean that the heterosexual marriages are any less marriages, it just means that people are actually recognizing the validity of homosexual marriages as an equal bond of love.

If you want to see degradation of marriage, you should look towards heterosexual couples. I'm pretty sure it's already been said here, but I'm talking about things like Britney Spears 24Hr marriage.

I won't say anything on the boy scout matter here, since I already said my peice about that in your thread.

Posted by: Kiara Apr 13 2009, 01:14 PM

I'm a girl and I love girls more the I do boys. If I love another girl more than anything in the whole world, she's the light of my life and I want to make her happy for the rest of my life, I feel like I should be able to do so. If I want to marry my soulmate, most times I can't. Why not? Because it's against the bible, mostly, even if they don't say it. Why else would love be "immoral"? How come I can't marry the love of my life in the place I live in, but two people can get married and hate each other?

That's how I feel.

Posted by: nebz5 Apr 13 2009, 02:03 PM

Yeah I'm for gay marriage. If there's a gay couple living next to you,you know how that affects your life, guess, that's right it doesn't. All it means is that there's gay people living next to you just because they're different from the norm doesn't make them some sort of monster or less of a human. Though personally I'm truly against marriage in the whole. All your really doing is paying someone money to have them tell you and someone else that the two of you are in love.

Posted by: Tatl Apr 13 2009, 02:18 PM

Aside from agreeing with what was said in the last few posts about this, I'd like to point out that there are undoubtedly many, many, many gay boys in Boy Scouts as it is that just aren't open about it.

I think what you fail to understand, and what a lot of people fail to understand, is that homosexual people do the exact same things as heterosexual people... just, with their own gender. It's about loving each other, not about going out and getting as much sex as possible, "infiltrating" Boy Scouts to molest kids, or whatever else. Just as many heterosexual people are as likely to molest children as homosexual people.

Posted by: Tachaccoon Apr 14 2009, 09:39 PM

Heh. It reminds me of a saying:

"Just because they're gay, doesn't mean they're looking at you. You're not that hot."

I have no idea why people have a problem with Gays getting married.
Really.

Here, Let me do a little skit:

Kid: LALALA I'M GOING TO SCHOOL LALALA
*kids goes past church having gay wedding*
*Kid stops*
Kid: OHMEHGAWD MEH FUTURE IS RUINED AND THIS COMPLETELY AFFECTS MY LIFE BECAUSE I PASSED BY A CHURCH THAT HAS GAY MARRIAGE!
*Kid Screams*
*Kid vomits spiders*
*Kid falls over in trama*

...Do you see the not-happing-ever from that?

Posted by: Hikarii Apr 14 2009, 09:58 PM

I lol'd.

Posted by: KaiReddtail Apr 14 2009, 11:42 PM

Tachaccoon, I applaud your excellent use of satirical humor to make a very valid point. Bravo!

Posted by: Crunch Apr 15 2009, 06:21 PM

It's racist because you're forgetting the amazingly heavy baggage that comes with white history, which is often presented as being the only history worth studying. Whites have a history of oppressing and taking advantage of anyone viewed as inferior. Black/Hispanic/etc History months are done in order to highlight the accomplishments of historically and presently oppressed and obscured minorities. They're done in order to REMIND people that everyone is equal and that they have the right to be proud of themselves and celebrate their people's histories even if they are not white. You are talking from an incredibly privileged position.




I lol'd.


And personally, as a gay person, I obviously support gay marriage. However, what I would love to see is the government providing civil unions to everyone whether gay, straight, bisexual, whatever, and the churches being in charge of marriage. If a church doesn't want to marry my girlfriend and I, so be it. I'll go somewhere else. I will still have my legal documents stating I am in a union with someone.

I am sick to death of the argument that being gay is not "natural" and wrong because it gays don't procreate. Would you deny marriage to infertile couples? To couples who simply choose not to have children? And frankly, humanity has strayed worlds away from being "natural". Look at it this way: You are using the internet, on a computer (a man-made machine), that uses electricity generated by other man-made machines, inside a man-made house, which most likely also uses electricity, has air-conditioning, at least one tv, a microwave, a refridgerator, radio, beds with bedframes, books, glasses, dvds, cds, videogames, toys, clothing, etc. None of these things occur naturally in the world. So shut up with your "it's not natural" argument.

None of what you do except crap, sleep, eat, and screw are natural.

Posted by: Pokii Apr 16 2009, 10:08 PM

All right childrens, listen up. The reason that people can't agree on gay marriage is simple and I'm about to explain it for those of you who haven't gotten it yet.

Coming from growing up in a house run by demi-rich Conservative Christian Republican white people, I can tell you honestly and truly why Christians will kill you over the subject of "gay marriage." The reason is quite simple: it says in the Bible that marriage is a sacrament; that is to say that it is a sacred ritual of two people coming together as one, which is specifically stated that it is to consist of one man and one woman.

So see, half the time it's not even two people of the same sex being together (though a lot of times it is...), but the whole issue they have against "gay marriage" is the "marriage" part. They believe that since it's a man and a man or a woman and a woman, they feel it's "degrading" (to quote EBB) to the "sacrament" of marriage which, because the Bible said so, therefore makes it a sin, which therefore makes a lot of them just hate gay people period. But if it wasn't called gay marriage, hell, half the people probably wouldn't even care anymore...

So see, once again it's not really an argument over a law or principle, it's an argument over a definition.

Posted by: Zoreta Apr 16 2009, 10:18 PM

Of course, it is also considered a sin if you don't offer your daughters to your male guests as entertainment in the laws of hospitality. It is also a sin if you shave, or wear clothing of mixed fabric, or eat shellfish or swine.

Just because it was considered a sin then, doesn't mean it should be considered one now.

Posted by: Nathan Graves Apr 16 2009, 10:18 PM

That makes no sense though because the church should have shit to do with government, especially considering not everyone's a fucking Christian, and it actually violates the first amendment to base a law upon a religious policy -- a religion not everyone shares.

Posted by: Zoreta Apr 16 2009, 10:24 PM

Yes, but because we are a democracy, and a majority of the population is Christian, Christian ideas wriggle their way in. Unfortunately, the only way to get around it is to use the amendments already in place to overturn things like Prop 8, and overturning laws takes a lot of time.

Posted by: Pokii Apr 16 2009, 10:25 PM

Well, that depends on where you live, I'd imagine. Though you're using America for your example, so that works...

For us Americans, our country was founded by Puritan Christians who were basically rejected from England as trash and decided to form a new nation however they pleased (by stealing land from the natives who were already there, like most empires). But people seem to forget that this nation was indeed originally founded as a primarily Christian nation, though it was certainly still one where you could be whatever you wanted to be. It's just that times have changed and the "whatever else you want to be" has caught up with Christianity and they don't seem to like the shift in balance ("balance" being a very lax word in this particular context).

But I guess this is sort of off-topic now =\

Posted by: Hikarii Apr 17 2009, 04:42 PM

Yeah, Pokii, I know what you're talking about. They had something on the news the other day about how Christians are realizing that they're losing their fanbase, they were saying that there has been a sharp drop in "morality" in this country. BAWWWWW. This is the 21st century. Live in it. I'm pretty sure teaching people to hate gays and deny them rights isn't moral.

Posted by: Lord Raven Apr 17 2009, 05:04 PM

Morals and government don't mix for the same reasons religion and government don't mix.

Posted by: Crunch Apr 18 2009, 03:29 PM

See, here's the thing. Language is this wonderful little thing that can evolve and change, and the meanings of words can change over time. Like how 'gay' used to mean 'happy', and now it means 'homsexual', and in a more derogatory manner, 'stupid'.

Marriage was never initially a religious ritual anyway. It was about land and alliances, and the religious folks came and added spiritual significance to the act. Now, that's not a bad thing in and of itself, but people marry for all different kinds of reasons. Some only do it for the legal benefits, some do it for love, some do it for their children, etc etc. Now two gay people getting married in a church may indeed be degrading to "Christian marriage", but in its most legal sense, outside of religious influence, it is not degrading at all.

And why would God have marriage only be between men and women? What's the reason for that exactly? If marriage was always about love, why not have it open to everyone? It would never be threaten by homosexual marriage, but the homosexual population, throughout the history of time, has always been a significantly lower percentage than the heterosexual population. Just because gays can marry doesn't mean that suddenly straight people everywhere are just gonna change instantly and get gay married. Sexuality simply doesn't work that way.




There have been hundreds of debates about the religiosity of the founding fathers, but the bottom line is whether they were Christian or Deist doesn't really matter, seeing as they purposely made sure that their government and its Constitution were not based on Christian principles. Even though the country's population is overwhelmingly Christian, that does not make its government religious.

The Puritans came before the country united under one government with a Constitution. Personally, I have no respect for the Puritans. They were very good Christians, but also hypocrites.

Posted by: Tiamat Apr 19 2009, 11:39 AM

You want to help me call them a waaah-mbulance? Because it sound like they need it.

But even with marriage currently having religious connotiations, it doesn't change the fact that it is not equal. It's similar to the voting restrictions in that it keeps a group from doing something the majority does on a regular basis. And before you start wanking at me, I said similar, not the same. Get over it already.

@ Crunch: It seems to me that "hypocrite" and what the church calls a "good Christian" tend to be one and the same, even though a truly good Christian would be a generally good and accepting person, and not a Bible-bashing jerk who denies that everyone is equal in the eyes of God as well as the law.

No, I'm not religious. I'm just stupidly optimistic about humanity.

Posted by: trippy Apr 20 2009, 09:03 AM

Seriously, it’s none of your business what goes on behind closed doors guys.

GFT
And if they are being all...Happy and gay in public, YOU chose to be offended by it, and see it as a disgusting unholy act, it’s not like they are doing it despite you. It’s never an issue unless you make an issue out of it, don’t like it. Turn your head and ignore it. It really isn’t that hard.
I thought I would read all those post, but god; I don’t have the will power to do so. >A>

Posted by: Airotia Apr 21 2009, 07:25 PM

You know, to be perfectly honest, I think it's wrong for people to separate gays/lesbians from straight people, like they aren't human anymore. o_O I'm straight, my best friend is a lesbian. It isn't contagious or anything. It's a separate life-style--that's it. Whether it's genetic or a choice, it's either something they can't help or something they want to be.

As for people who say it's wrong based on Christianity... Where the hell do YOU get off? Not EVERYONE is Christian, or believes in every single aspect of it. I, myself, think that the Bible is either A: badly translated (I mean, it's been thousands of years. Someone had to have made mistakes in translations SOMEWHERE) or B: a story a bunch of dudes made up in their free time. So, stop preaching to us about how we're going to burn in hell. You just come off as using scare tactics... Which is the basis of a lot of Christianity.

(Don't get me wrong. I like decent Christians who honestly believe in helping people. But I prefer people to be spiritual rather than religious. And yes, I think they're is a difference.) Oh, and did you know there are preachers that teach gay-friendly versions of the Bible? I'd like to meet them. I could get along with them, even though I am technically... Whatever the hell I am, I'm not quite sure. o_O

But this topic isn't about religion.

Not allowing gays/lesbians to get married is extreme discrimination. By not allowing it, America is breaking the "separate church and state" sort of thing, because the reasons for not allowing gay marriage are all solely based on religion. If everyone suddenly decided that women had to have arranged marriages, would that make it right? The tyranny of the majority in this country can be quite horrific sometimes.

As to the "ew, it shouldn't be in PUBLIC" argument... Please, do you know what STRAIGHT people do in public? Sucking face, and everything further. =_= Stop being such SISSIES about differences. Gawsh, you're like little kids.

Posted by: X KeiKara X Apr 23 2009, 08:32 PM

I don't really have much to say on this.
I'm a straight girl who loves her boyfriend.

But i strongly believe Love has no Gender. <3

Posted by: chariot Apr 23 2009, 09:45 PM

i think it's highly RETARDED that this is even up for debate. i hope one day society looks back on this whole gay marriage "debate" this and shakes their collective head sadly at our archaic views, likening them to racial segregation.

Posted by: KaiReddtail Apr 23 2009, 10:05 PM

I also find it funny that people seem to think you can "catch" it. I've actually seen people argue against gay adoption because it might "turn the kid gay." Seriously? Turn the kid gay?

Thats like saying hanging around tall people will make you tall.

Would it be so horrible if it worked that way anyway? Homosexuality isn't a disease, it's not a negative thing. It just is, like heterosexuality. Love is love, it's all good. Couldn't the world use more of it?

Posted by: JabbaScript Apr 23 2009, 10:23 PM

Well, in my country, in California, I think, I beleive that it should be between a man and a woman...

Posted by: KaiReddtail Apr 23 2009, 10:32 PM

If you wouldn't mind, could you please expand on this point?

Why do you think that? Is marriage not about love? Why does it have to be between a man and a woman, when two men or two women can love eachother just as much. Why should they be denied marriage?

Posted by: Christopher Wallken Apr 23 2009, 10:37 PM

Here in NY there is a bill being worked on for Gay Rights. My school has been torn apart between the two right now.

I support gay rights, there is no reason why anyone should be put down becasue of their prefrences.

Posted by: Hikarii Apr 23 2009, 11:58 PM

Hey awesome, I live in New York too, so that's good news. I'm hoping we'll be the next state to pull out of this ridiculous, immoral way of thinking.

Posted by: Mist Wanderer Apr 24 2009, 01:58 AM

Exactly this.

At some point in the future, this will be a point in history much like how segregation is for us. And, as ever, those who oppose it now will look quite silly.

I have a particular personal stake in this, but Canada isn't likely to revoke same-sex marriage at any time soon, even with a Conservative government. I sincerely hope that more U.S. states and more countries in the world grant the same freedoms soon as well.

Posted by: chariot Apr 24 2009, 12:52 PM

actually, three months after canada legislated human equality in marriages in 2003, the conservative party (who we love all sooooo much n_n) tried to repeal it, aganist the wishes of the admitted majority of the population. it wasn't, of course. stupid blues.

(i looked on wikipedia to make sure the billed was passed in 2003, and it had a list of the number of gay marriages in each canadian province, and apparently there has only even been one in nunavut. wouldn't it be awkward to be those two?)

KaiReddtail, i think he was making refernce to miss california. i mean, california IS a country, right?

Posted by: surfinbuizel Apr 24 2009, 02:21 PM

Here are my views on the subject. Long and short, I don't think homosexuality is wrong, and I don't believe the bible says it is wrong either, and I'm not the only one. (I'll post links at the bottom of this post to arguments from christian ministers that back me up).

I don't want to force churches to perform same sex marriages, though I know that the United Methodist Church is reforming their policies on gay marriages which is awesome. However, I don't think it is right to force their views on everyone else in the country.

I don't agree with what went down here in California (Prop 8, I'll put links to info on this at the bottom of the page as well). I believe gay marriage is a human rights issue, and I don't think that human rights issues should be put to vote, this puts us in danger of enacting "Oppression by the Majority", which I think defeats all of the ideals this country was based on. It is my firm belief that if laws re-instituting slavery were put on the ballot, they would all pass. This matter is better left to the supreme courts. I repeat gay rights should not be an issue of a vote.

The thing I most wonder is why gay marriage is such a big issue in the churches today. There are many things which are legal which go against religious teachings (most notable christian, mormon and jewish). and they let those be legal without makign a stink, so why is eradicating gay marriage so high on the agenda?

The Links:
The Bible does not expressly condemn homosexuality:
http://www.theturning.org/folder/samesex.html
http://www.freeingthespirit.org/Homosexuality&Bible.htm
http://www.faithforum.org/challenge/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=1210&whichpage=1 <--- a really long and hard to read argument on the subject, but worth reading through.

Prop 8 (Gay Marriage ban in CA):
For: http://www.protectmarriage.com/
Against: http://www.eqca.org/site/pp.asp?c=kuLRJ9MRKrH&b=4375153
( I was against)

Also, awesome video which is similar to my line of thinking on the matter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glumfQsP45c

Posted by: LilRed Apr 30 2009, 07:34 PM

he was either doing a sarcastic quote of Miss California or ...being serious....i'm hoping its the first

lrn2keepUpwithcurrentevents

Posted by: PeachyMomo May 2 2009, 06:42 PM

I'm going to copypasta my response from the Sexuality thread, but I find this debate much more disgusting. Some of the people on here are... horrific. I can't describe my feelings for them.

Anyway:

I find the argument that homosexuality is not natural and a choice totally illogical and thoughtless. First of all, heterosexuals, could you force yourself to have sex with a member of the same sex and enjoy it? Could you fall in love [although I believe all people have the ability to love regardless of sex or gender], start a life, raise children, get married and be happy? I really doubt it. Not only that, but choosing to be discriminated against, beaten, murdered, raped, arrested, experimented on, abused... isn't something most people would do. Also, it is prevalent in many animal species - many, many, many animal species, including primates. Arguing it is not natural and a choice seems like not thinking.

For those that believe homosexuality is wrong because it is written in the bible, try thinking for yourselves and doing a little research at least before condemning and judging mindlessly before basing your opinion on a book written thousands of years ago by people who condoned beating your children or even killing your children for "sinning" - but for forbidding eating cloven-hoofed animals. It's probably easy to discriminate when you are on the top of the food chain, a white heterosexual worshiping the most powerful religion in the world. That doesn't make you NOT arrogant and foolish however. Not only that, but there are many other religions and beliefs - why is yours so much better? Keep it out of other people's lives, and definitely out of the law. Humans are humans first, and sexuality should not matter. And those that believe it is ruining the definition of marriage, you should check and see how often it has already changed.

Homosexuality is not harming anyone. Unfortunately, heterosexuals who think so are the only ones being harmful. I just don't see how it's anyone's business. And also... it's unfair to say, "It's okay to be gay as long as you keep it to yourself" when heterosexuals are open about their relationships and sexuality every day. Another double standard I can't stand.

I also don't understand why heterosexuals' physical and sexual disgust is okay, but they display heterosexuals kissing and having sex, etc. all the time in the media. Personally, I squirm a bit, but I am no heterophobe; it's just my natural reaction, but I grin and bear it - and I appreciate love in all forms. Why can't heterosexuals?

Of course, sadly, there is some discrimination from homosexuals against bi/pansexuals as well. And against transgenders/genderqueers. It's just sad how divided everyone has to be over something so petty.

Posted by: laskuraska May 2 2009, 06:47 PM

I am in favor of same-sex marriage because marriage affords each member of a couple special protections in the event of the illness or death of their spouse. As of right now, heterosexuals who marry are given all of these rights without question, while the American public for some reason thinks it's right to deprive gays of these protections so that nasty un-supportive fundamentalist family members can do cruel things to the surviving partner.

Marriage for all. Separate is unequal.

Posted by: Kai Reddtail May 2 2009, 07:59 PM

Now now, I feel that last bit was a tad rude.

He did not specify whether or not it was sarcasm, so I'm still going to question it. If he was being sarcastic he can simply tell me and I will retract my questions. I think my reply was justified, considering the circumstances.

Posted by: laskuraska May 2 2009, 08:06 PM

Lucky my left buttcheek. Nobody accepts bisexuals. Gay people hate bisexuals because they pretend we "can be straight and make it all go away" if we like, straight people think we're greedy, bigots think we're worse than normal gay folk. I'm not going to pretend we're super oppressed, or even a little bit oppressed compared to real live oppressed people, but we're nowhere near lucky.

Posted by: Decontrolled Raichu May 8 2009, 03:36 PM

I honestly don't see what the hell is up with this. It's not hurting anyone. It's not causing anyone, any sort of damage. It's just two people in love, which is supposedly what all the major religions teach - loving the people around you, either as neighbours, friends or family. It even happens in nature, so the argument that it's "un-natural" is total rubbish. I also totally agree with Chariot and Mist Wanderer - people will look back and wonder what the problem was.

Happily here in the UK, homosexual couples do have the right to adopt and marry. (Well, it's called a civil-union, but they get exactly the same legal benefits and status as hetrosexual couples).

Posted by: Matdredalia May 13 2009, 04:48 PM

I'm completely pro same-sex marriage. But, I'm bisexual, my best friend is a lesbian, and the majority of my friends are either gay or bi, sooo, to me, it's kind of a no brainer.

To be honest, I think that it's causing more harm not allowing it than it is "protecting marriage". I don't think it protects anybody but the churches hauty opinion on gays, and as far as I'm concerned, the church can get their hands off my body and off my marriage.

the biggest thing that pisses me off is that churches are getting mega-involved in politics and even basically bought Prop 8 in California. What in the HELL happened to seperation of church and state?

I couldn't have said it better myself. While there are a lot of gay folks that will be more inclusive of us, there are just as many that hate our gutts and treat us like crap. We may not be "oppressed" per se but we're definitely not lucky, and we often feel out of place no matter where we go.

Posted by: Diarkia124 May 16 2009, 04:30 PM

I was going to do a topic on CA Prop 8, but never mind. I would go with No Same-Sex marriage. A marriage is a union between a man and a woman. Those words were said by Palin and Biden.

Posted by: Ness May 16 2009, 04:36 PM

Posted by: SuperVillain May 16 2009, 09:35 PM

There is nothing wrong against it. I find those who are against it not completely rational. It's the person's choice if they want to marry the same gender person. Those who are for same sex marriage should not be discriminated by others, as we are all equal on this world.

Posted by: Hikarii May 17 2009, 12:31 AM

Yeah, because you should totally believe everything that politicians tell you.

Posted by: Twin May 18 2009, 04:44 AM

Well see, one of the biggest barriers on this issue is religion. But we often-times forget that religion is not always a bad thing, nor was it intended to BE a bad thing. A lot of the gays I've known that lobby for same-sex marriage are also atheists, because of these preachers casting a whooole lot of stones they have no right to be pitching. This issue has caused a great amount of damage to the practicing Christian and their churches, attendance dropping significantly as the love of the lord seems to be promoting "favoritism" of certain orientations, according to these priests and scriptures. The fact of the matter is, religion is protected by the constitution. Christians should have every right in the world to turn away a gay marriage from their churches, if their specific sect rejects the idea of it. If there was a recognized religion that told people that the only way to get to heaven was to stand on their head for fifteen hours a day, they would have just as much right, guaranteed by the first amendment, to do this. That's just how it is, and that is the principle this country was founded on-- religious freedom is important. HOWEVER.

(Before people go jumping down my throat and tearing me to shreds.)

Marriage is in fact, an institution of the state in this day and age. This practice, this ceremony once restricted to religion, now appears on licenses, documents, and files that can affect the way we live as a society, that affect the perks and decisions the government makes in regards to us as citizens-- tax breaks, visitation rights, the adoption of children. The Christian ideal of marriage ceases to be an exclusively religious practice anymore. The way I see it, marriage is just as much as institution as a fire-station or a hospital, so long as it remains as ingrained in our legal system as it is now. And last I heard, it was outright illegal to turn people away from these places on the bases of race, gender, or orientation....

It's a broken system, and it needs to end, NOW.

Posted by: Raistlin16 May 18 2009, 09:34 PM

I believe in same sex marriages, because if Christianity has a problem with it, then why does it try to force its religion on other people who live in a free country? That's why I am Agnostic, because I don't believe in what Christianity stands for, I just believe in rights and in god, if two guys or two girls can't get married for happiness then I don't know what marriage is when it is just an obligation and not a luxury, Same sex's have had shown more love to each other, then straight marriages, I think religion should stay out of this matter because all it does is make God, The Bible, and Christians look like a religious group pent on controlling irresistible urges in A LOT of people, nothing against Christianity but that's the only religion I ever hear about.

Posted by: Gati May 21 2009, 11:38 PM

I don't see what's wrong with gay marriage, and both my parents are against it. I seriously don't give a crap if it's two women or two men, either way, I strongly believe that marriage it's between two people that love each other, not setting a rule against it that you can't do this or the other. But I don't want to write a huge post. Just remember that if two people love each other, what does it effect you, it is not a huge percent of the population that is gay, and besides there is a huge number of people in the world.

Posted by: ninjacookie May 25 2009, 06:35 PM

I don't even get why so many people are against gay marriage. Two guys or two girls loving each other hurts absolutely no one. Some people may find it disturbing but does that really justify denying a human being his or her rights? I think churches should have a right to refuse going against their beliefs, but gays should also have rights to their beliefs as well. Then the people against it can keep their religion intact while less restricting churches can allow it. If you don't agree just find a different church to worship at.

Personally watching this huge anti-gay marriage stuff going on has made me realize that Marriage isn't about love anymore. Now its all about "whats right" And if the church thinks that two people wanting to commit to each other and love each other for the rest of their lives is wrong then I want absolutely nothing to do with it. Me and my boyfriend will not be getting married. We don't need to participate in something like that just to prove our love to each other.

Posted by: Aragos May 25 2009, 08:36 PM

I myself and Bisexual, and I have to be cautious about it due to hate crimes and whatnot... I'd rather not die before I can propose to the love of my life.

I'm an atheist, but even if I wasn't, what right do we have to say that god thinks Homosexuality is evil? to support this argument, god gave us the capacity to love, didn't he? this means we can love whoever we want, regardless of if they're the same sex as we are. In the end, it should just come down to love. Not Tradition.

If you don't like homosexuals, then don't try to find them to berate them.

Scientifically, one's attraction to another is triggered by chemicals being released in your brain that stimulates your social receptors in the brain. Some people's brain release the stimulants to different receptors, which results in Homosexuality, Bisexuality, and usually, Heterosexuality. This doesn't mean that this is a brain damage that should be cured. No. This means it's the way your brain works, and the way you are. Homosexuality and Bisexuality isn't really a choice. It's chemicals in your brain. Same with Heterosexuality. For anyone to segregate Homosexuals and Bisexuals is like criminally charging a blind person for not being able to see, or a deaf person from not being able to hear. It's horrible, it's cruel, and the segregation against Homosexuals is a criminal act in itself. And what's worse, people are being MURDERED because of their sexuality, which is something they cannot control.

Besides. The planet's overpopulated anyway. The less heterosexual relationships there are, the less babies are born and there will be fewer babies born into poverty.

Posted by: Grovyle May 26 2009, 12:53 PM

I have no problem with homosexuality, but when they try to oppress me because I do not agree with their every idea, then we have a conflict.
@ anyone who is going to reply on this:
I know that not all gays are like that.
How ever, when you see videos about gay people on a 'peaceful' march beating the shit out of lone protester, that kind of knocks me away from them and their ideas. How ever the media (newspaper, tv, some internet sites, ect...) have been crushing the public knowledge about stuff like that for as long as I can remember.

btw, this planet is NOT over populated. every person on the planet can drown in Loch Ness at the same time.
and if its to crowded were you are, then move. drive around Tennessee or Kansas, that should change your mind.
If not, then you are refusing other people's opinions and trying to smash yours into them.

What is our society coming to?

Posted by: ninjacookie May 26 2009, 01:45 PM

Yeah, well I've seen much more violence going on towards gays then gays attacking protesters. Some young boy was even shot just because he tried to give another boy a valentine. And plenty of gay men and women are discriminated, beaten down or even killed everyday. There is violence on both sides. If a straight man attacks a gay man are you against straight marriage then? I understand being against it because of your beliefs, but surely you cant justify your feelings just by a few reports on violence.

Also, about the overpopulation, the US now has had more births than the last baby boom. We may still have plenty of space in the middle of nowhere, but where I live it's packed. There's not even enough room in our schools anymore. If people keep having 3,4,5,6 and so on kids, we'll be flooded just like china in no time.

Posted by: Connie May 26 2009, 01:49 PM

I personally think that it's fine, People can love who they want to love and if they want to get married, well why can't they? People nowdays shouldn't be afraid of it any more, we've moved on from looking gays up because they are gay

Posted by: Ludocx May 26 2009, 01:59 PM

being bi I am for it I can see the pros and cons, well what cons, really there is no con apart form churchs (mainly catholic I am not singling out a church because it is the only one to speak out about it.) I mean a marraige is a union between two people, and wait, isnt there a state in america where you can marry a horse???... do that math

Posted by: Grovyle May 26 2009, 02:00 PM

You misunderstand. I am against indoctrination. The public schools are starting to teach 'gay is good'. and stuff like that.
and when someone voices an opinion that opposes the topic in any way, they are punished. Same with evolution.

Posted by: ninjacookie May 26 2009, 02:05 PM

Really now? I remember being taught that gays were equal human beings, not that it was good. Gay couples had to face the same penalties that straight couples faced when caught making out, and while the teachers punished kids who teased gays they also punished kids who teased the unpopular kids.

Also, we learned 3 different theories on how life came to be at my school. It was mandatory to take a lesson on each.

Posted by: Ludocx May 26 2009, 02:09 PM

at my school it is very much gay is a horrible thing....

I get called gay even though i deny it because my back up is well im bi, its horrible to be made fun of.

oh and about evolution being in ireland catholisms way is bet into me not literally but you know, and being an atheist me and my friend sit there picking at flaws, horrible yes but thats what they do to us

Posted by: Grovyle May 26 2009, 02:21 PM

Really?
Wow... At all the schools I have seen, the school only teaches evolution.
I picked the school that I go to now, cause they don't teach any origin theory.

Posted by: Aragos May 26 2009, 05:32 PM

... pardon my crude language, but how the bloody hell did I refuse someone else's opinion and all of that? I hate to be blunt, but all I did was put my opinion on the subject out there, but I did not at any point try to bludgeon anyone with it in the slightest. With that said, please lets avoid any aggression here, especially over simple opinions, as 'controversial' as they may be.

Now, about the whole 'the planet isn't overpopulated' thing... Perhaps you have some cold hard facts you can present to us to back up that statement? Since this is a debate and all...

but back on subject. Every school I've seen teaches that gays are evil, and several teachers have bluntly stated that all gays and bis should be killed. People are being murdered over it, people are being killed senselessly over it, and all gay violence against straights is purely preemptive and out of fear for their own lives, because of the hate-crimes they may have seen, and yet people have the AUDACITY to say that publicly speaking about gays in a positive manor is wrong. No one's trying to shove a sexuality down your throat in that situation, however, what they are trying to do is prevent the younger generation from going out and murdering gays and bis as other people have for years. What on earth could possibly be wrong about speaking out in public to try to prevent further bloodshed over something so HARMLESS?

Posted by: Grovyle May 26 2009, 05:43 PM

On the overpopulation part.
http://www.thepeacock.com/Miscellaneous/Is_the_World_OVERPOPULATED.htm

On the same sex marriage part.
I cannot change your beliefs. So I will drop that.
I am not saying you are right though.
Gays attack Straights because they are not Gay.
Straights attack Gays because the are not Straight.
they just want everyone to be like them. (both sides)
And just so you know, I am currently gay.

Posted by: joshacuff May 26 2009, 05:46 PM

By all thing's Holy NOOOO!!!!

Posted by: joshacuff May 26 2009, 05:50 PM

Well Gay's are not evil only their way's, BUT if they do not believe in GOD, then it really doesn't matter one way or the other!

Posted by: Aragos May 26 2009, 05:53 PM

Overpopulation isn't just about how much land there is to go around. It's about what resources people have, and the amount of babies being born daily. If you add these together, in about thirty years, even the desolate areas of the world will be crowded. we need to slow down the reproductive rate, even if it's just a little bit.

Currently gay? Does this mean you were previously straight? I believe that falls along the lines of bisexual, no offense. both sides have to fear for their lives, yes, but more gays are murdered over their sexuality than straights are, while bi's tend to get murdered for being 'Dishonest' about their sexuality. <.<; Point of the matter is, acceptance should be taught on all sides, to prevent conflict among the current generation still in school.
Oh, and let's not forget how many transsexuals are murdered over their "sexuality" too.

Posted by: Stealth Rock May 26 2009, 05:55 PM

do you mind elaborating?

Posted by: ninjacookie May 26 2009, 05:57 PM

But that's just the thing. Many gays do believe in god. They believe that they should say their vows and have a true marriage just like other straight couples. Many also believe that god accepts them for the way they are because why else would he create them that way?

Christians had a war against the Jews and other religions because of what they considered was against gods will. Jews and many people of varying faiths are allowed to be married now, so why are gays still banned?

Posted by: Grovyle May 26 2009, 05:59 PM

I have known I am Gay since I was 5. and I am leaving it at that.
PM me if you want to continue down that road.

As for the overpopulation part.
The Earth was made for habitation.
There are alternate energy sources, renewable products ect...
Just cause oil is running out doesn't mean we are getting overpopulated.

Posted by: Aragos May 26 2009, 06:04 PM

Fair enough Grovyle.

The planet was made for habitation, yes, but not a habitation of 12 to 1 humans versus all other land walking creatures. We still need to be considerate to the other species that inhabit this planet, so we don't risk an ecosystem collapse.

Posted by: Grovyle May 26 2009, 09:55 PM

I am just curious.
How did a same-sex marriage debate become a overpopulation debate???

Posted by: mehitsme May 26 2009, 11:31 PM

Overpopulation: That whole argument is a little pointless. In hetero sexual marriages, if a couple is too old to, unable to, or simply doesn't want to reproduce, are their marriages terminated? No. There are also ways in which gays and lesbians can reproduce and put their own Dna in the child. Sperm donor, Surrogat mother, ect, ect.

Gay relationships are immoral: Says who? The bible? I thought me freedom to religion also meant I had freedom from religion. In fact; in America, it's the law that religion should not be injected into government. But we 're a hypocritical country, no wonder everyone always wants to fight with us.

Threatens the basics of marriage: Threaten marriage? By allowing people to marry? The hell? If we are so worried about marriage, then why do we have divorce? And Vegas marriages? You can get married when you're drunk, for goodness sakes. Homosexuals are not allowed that.

It's a 'special' right: 10% of the population is homosexual. Deneying 10% of 7 billion people a basic right is not special. In fact, legalizing gay marriage would give heterosexual an extra right. They can already marry the person they love, now they get the option to marry anyone.

Also; I cringe whenever I hear the term 'Lesbos/ Lezzies.'

Posted by: yupui May 27 2009, 01:54 AM

Marriage as a legal institution should not have anything to do with religion. Seperation of church and state? You know, a founding principle?

I say they stop handing out marriage licenses and start giving everyone civil unions. In the eyes of the law a marriage is just a tax break and a few legal priveliges. God doesn't care about tax breaks, last I checked.

Although, last I checked God doesn't have a definite opinion on homosexuality, either.

Posted by: Grovyle May 27 2009, 06:29 AM

I am fully gay. I am also a little anti-feminist. Bad experience when I was 10. Get paranoid around them.
Overpopulation - I agree with you.
Marriage - Marriage is a ceremony that should not be dragged though the dirt. (Vegas marriage)



The US was founded on God. Not 'separation of church and state'.
People moved over here to worship God their own way.

You are right about the opinion about the homosexual people, but not about the homosexual actions.
I will put the verse when I find it.

EDIT: found it.

"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination." Leviticus 20:13

Posted by: yupui May 27 2009, 01:38 PM

The seperation of church and state is the only reason anyone could follow any religion in this country, and as such should be held in the highest regard when making laws in this country. The religious affiliation of the Pilgrims is less important than the fact that they sought freedrom from religious oppression, something that homosexuals are suffering under right now, in our supposedly enlightened age. It's simply disgusting that anyone could think that Christianity is a good excuse to remove rights from a human being.

(On the subject of Leviticus:
That verse in Leviticus has been proven to have been mistranslated, and even if it was accurate, I don't see it being somehow more important than every other verse in that book that everyone happily ignores. Why do they ignore it? Because it's an Old Testament book, and the Old Testament does not apply to Christians.

There is a verse in Romans that holds much more weight than the entire book of Leveticus, but I still reject scripture outside of the Ten Commandments and the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself, as the rest was written by very fallible men. The verse in Romans is from a letter written by the Apostle Paul, and he is definitely not God.)

Posted by: mehitsme May 27 2009, 08:58 PM

On to Bible condoning homosexuality.

Corinthians 6:9-10 - Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

A major debate is translation. 'homosexual' is translated from arsenokoite. Some think 'arsenokoite' is male prostitutes again; or that the roots don't approve of any sexual acts, hetero and homo.

Buuut, apparently the next verse seems to clean the slate either way

Corinthians 6:11 - "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

The Leviticus passages are also up for debate. Though they seem to clearly condone homosexuality, I believe it is used to describe the homosexuality at the Pagen temples.

Also, many other 'homosexual is sinful' passages are not clear whether they are about homosexuality in general or prostitution. Either way, man wrote the bible, man translated it, and it is man's creation. Now, If God want to drop me a writing of his own; maybe I wouldn't be so skeptical.

Seriously, I'm not Atheist or anything.>.>

Posted by: Sarge May 27 2009, 09:26 PM

Grovyle, the more I read your posts the more I think, "There is one cool dude." But I also think you're pretty misguided. (I do sympathize with you for being anti-femminest. I find some of those women scary.)

I personally don't see anything wrong with being gay. As a native Californian, I am SICKENED that our state voted against gay marriage. However, I also understand why they did it. They were using the same definition of marriage used in the bible. I'm not going to attempt to argue against the bible's definition of marriage. It's perfectly clear about what is right and what is wrong for marriage under the biblical definition, so all I can say is that I disagree with it and find it unfair.

Legally I think gays should have the same rights as heterosexuals, that is the right to be married (with all the legal benefits of marriage) and to adopt. I think that a compromise would be the best way to make everyone happy, but because of the cutural signifigance of marriage in our society, I can see why that too is unfair.

I personally would be in favor of any form of marriage that is divorced from the bible.

In the end, I think the only way to resolve this is for one side to step down and compromise with the other, or for all gays to move to Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, Iowa, or Vermont.

Posted by: Grovyle May 27 2009, 09:35 PM

Thanks. I grew up around rough mean little girls... Very unpleasant. And heaven forbid you say 'no' about anything to them... And please point out how I am misguided. I am really curious. (I will not try to destroy you for you answer)


I have nothing against Gays either. I just don't want them to burn in Hell because of their actions.
Have you ever really thought about the word 'eternity'. I most certainly do not want to be anywhere but by God for eternity.
Especially in Hell.

Posted by: Insane May 27 2009, 09:43 PM

I lol'd, first off, no ones asking you to be gay. I hate when people say, "Lesbians are okay, because its hot, but I hate it when men are gay because its gross" Your just another ignorant person.

Thats not a reason, its just making yourself sound like an idiot. If two people love each other they should be able to do what they please without idiots ruining it. Im not gay myself, but Im definitly not afraid to talk or be friend with someones who bi or gay.

Posted by: RheaDark May 27 2009, 09:47 PM

... why is religion such a factor in the american gov? It's not like such a supernatural entity exists.

Posted by: Insane May 27 2009, 09:53 PM

Oh also, on the whole "God said that a man shouldn't sleep with another man" If you can honestly show me some evidence that shows this is true, (other than in the bible) than please do so. The bible was not written by "god" there honestly is no god (also prove me wrong). If "god" hated gay people so much, why not intervene, or why not "make" them straight with his almighty powers? The church is just a conformity, yet "god" "gave" us free will, whats the point in that? And why hasnt he shown us any proof? Well now im off topic...

The only people who are against gays are ignorant or just idiots in general.

Posted by: Insane May 27 2009, 09:54 PM

I agree.

Posted by: RheaDark May 27 2009, 09:56 PM

Even if one does, what created it? Are there more? Why is the judeo-christian one the "right" one?

So many unanswered questions... no, scratch that. Questions answered with "because" and "do it anyway or you'll burn" or "I dunno."

Posted by: Sarge May 27 2009, 09:59 PM

Heaven is hell to me. I do not want to spend eternity bowing down to some megalomaniac deity. I would rather burn in hell than play to His ego, and there are more people than you think who would agree with me. I would rather cease to exist.

Don't you think life is so much more precious when it can be taken away? If all you're doing is biding your time until the rapture, then what have you really got to live for?

Let me ask you something. If God came down to Earth and said, in front of everyone, I HAVE DECIDED THAT FROM NOW ON ALL HUMAN SOULS WILL GO TO HEAVEN WHEN THEY DIE, EVEN SINNERS AND THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ME, what would you do? I do admire your courage to be openly gay as a Christan, that does take a lot of courage and disipline and I don't want to cheapen that. But if God did this, if he said you could sleep with whoever you wanted, male or female, without fear of going to hell... would you lie with a man as a man does with a woman?

Posted by: Grovyle May 27 2009, 10:02 PM

That is an insult to my and about 1/3 of the world's population.
God does NOT want you to bow to him. He wants to have a relationship with you.
Have you even looked at our side of it before dragging us through the dirt!?!

and no because he would be testing us.
And on a certain note. Can you prove were the matter from the big bang came from?

btw, I am planning for a future here. Even though I now I won't have one in this society.
It prevents boredom.

Posted by: RheaDark May 27 2009, 10:05 PM

So... he wants to have a relationship with us by forcing us to obey laws which make no sense and the sole purpose of which is pretty much to make ourselves hate ourselves?

Imma gonna be partying in hell with all the cool kids. I mean, sure, Hitler will be there too (I hope) but we'll give him cake and send him away.

Then again, even Martin Luther denounced Jews, so Hitler might get off easy...

Can you prove that a supernatural entity exists? Okay. So why should we believe in your made-believe friend. If you answer that, I'll answer where matter comes from. Seriously.

Planning for a future? If people like you plan the future for all of us, I'm glad that I'll be dead by then.

Posted by: Sarge May 27 2009, 10:08 PM

I hope Hitler brought his dog. *wants to play fetch with it* =3

Posted by: Grovyle May 27 2009, 10:13 PM

Planning for MY future...

We are locked in a no win situation in this debate.
No one can prove what happened in the beginning.
And I have nothing to lose if I'm right.
So I don't have any problems defending this.

(the passing the blame tactic doesn't work with me )

Posted by: LucarioandDiagla May 27 2009, 10:14 PM

many people say that the bible doesn't say anything but they are wrong. the bible says " ' Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." Leviticus 18:2 (NLT[New Living Translation]) If none of you believe me then look it up. this goes for women to.

Posted by: RheaDark May 27 2009, 10:19 PM

Awesome sauce.


I've got nothing to lose either. So why don't you bother?


So, basically, you refuse to anser or you can't. Great. You cannot debate. Moving on...

Posted by: Sarge May 27 2009, 10:22 PM

As long as god punishes anyone who doesn't aknowelege him, I don't see him as wanting a relationship with me. If he wanted a relationship with me all he has to do is give me a call, strike up a friendly conversation. I wouldn't even ask to know any universal truths. All he has to do is show me he's there. He hasn't done that, but he still wants to punish me for not aknowleging him. I'm sorry, but I don't see him as a friendly fellow or the sort of diety I'd like to spend eternity with.

You're avoiding the question. What if he wasn't testing you?

No, but I can provide a hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_M-theory You're just preying off my ADD by asking that question, but I answered it anyway. Now that I've given you a scientific hypothesis, prove to me that God did it WITHOUT USING THE BIBLE.

Posted by: RheaDark May 27 2009, 10:23 PM

There's no way to prove it, since the only way we even know of the judeo-christian cod via the christian perspective is through the bible.

Posted by: Sarge May 27 2009, 10:27 PM

Which is why I'm replying to his question of the origin of matter with an equally unfair question.

Posted by: RheaDark May 27 2009, 10:29 PM

He will just evade the question and distract you with another ten.

Posted by: ninjacookie May 27 2009, 10:37 PM

I don't think its right for people to force their beliefs on others. Aren't their many religions who believe in the same god but not in Jesus or whoever and what gods will is? The homosexuals who want to get married believe and worship the same god as the people against it. They want to follow his rules by having a marriage and they believe that god loves them the way they are.

Telling homosexuals they can't marry because they are wrong is like telling Jewish or Muslim people they can't marry just because they don't believe in Jesus. Let people start their own churches for their beliefs. It's just not fair and they are being unfairly discriminated against.

Posted by: Grovyle May 28 2009, 08:28 PM

How many Christians do you know of that forced someone to believe in God.
(if you do please tell me how to contact them so I can give them a stern talking/typing to)

Posted by: ninjacookie May 28 2009, 08:46 PM

I know too many to list, I know not all Christians are forceful but many of my Catholic family members were as well as some Christian school staff I ran into. Some of my friends were beat if they didn't go to church when they were younger : ( Similar things have happened with people of all faiths as well. I even met one atheist who was a real jerk.

What really irks me are the people who keep voting to make gay marriage illegal. Homosexuals who believe in god should be allowed to marry in churches that believe God allows them too. I don't care if anyone thinks it's wrong or immoral, I just don't want them influencing the government to control those peoples lives.

Posted by: RheaDark May 28 2009, 08:50 PM

Atheism isn't a faith, it's more a lack of faith.

People can be forced into "believing" by peer pressure - imagine being in a school where you're the only one who's an atheist. Bullying time! "You heathen! Burn in hell!" <-- I beat them up afterwards, but that's another story...

If homosexuality disgusts them so much, then all they need to do is not have gay sex. I don't see why they feel the need to intrude upon the rights of others. I bet it's for that "warm fuzzy feeling" of "protecting the church." Marriage isn't even a christian tradition.

Posted by: The Silver Falcon May 28 2009, 11:13 PM

I have had extremely bad experiences with Christianity. I was in an extremely religious private school untill 7th grade because I was too smart for the area public schools. And those were the worst years of my life. I was bullied by nearly the entire school because I was not a particular type of Christian. And that was when I grew fed up with organised religion. A church should not dictate what is right and good! Churchs are full of men who belive themselves the speakers of god. They say what will be easiest to hear, and all people love to hear how they are better than others. So of course gays are called unnatural by the church! It doesn't mean it's true!

Lesbians are some of my best friends. I'm not sure I agree homo-sexuality is something a person is born with, unchangeable at birth, but more importantly I don't see anything wrong with it. So what if no children are created, love is about sharing a life together, not becoming baby machines. There's always adoption, anyway.

Homo-sexuality was actually the norm in the Roman Empire. An admired scholar would sponser a pupil in philosophy as well as the art of love. Romans actually believed the love of two "equals" was more pure, because a man could have deeper feelings than a woman, women being only fit for housework. (biased, sure, but it was how they put it) Socrates and his pupil Plato, Plato's pupil Aristotle... all of which were recorded as having relationships together as well as coming up with most of the groundwork that modern math and science rose from. Whatever else you wish to call homo-sexuals, don't call them dumb, and don't called them cursed by a god.

As for the claim that hanging out with the wrong gender as a child causes homo-sexuality? Absolutly wrong. I hung out with guys whenever I could as a kid. I grew up loving racing, video games, and with a killer roundhouse kick, but not lesbian. I would be happy to kick your ass at Halo any day, but calling me a homo would be false.

Posted by: Kai Reddtail May 28 2009, 11:51 PM

Hanging out with the wrong gender?
The wrong gender?

Tell me nobody really believes that? Seriously, I need to know this, before my brain explodes. There are so many things wrong with that concept I wouldn't even know where to begin.




You could never talk to them all. As an atheist I get this often. Only half as often as I could because I don't try and de-convert religious people, so not everyone knows I'm atheist.

Posted by: The Silver Falcon May 28 2009, 11:56 PM

It's on the first page, probably near the bottom. I nearly spit my root beer out when I read it. *shakes head*

EDIT:
Found it. It starts bad and only gets worse. Here's the first half:

Posted by: Kai Reddtail May 29 2009, 12:40 AM

Oh my, it's painful on so many levels. I'm just speechless.

Posted by: RheaDark May 29 2009, 11:27 AM

... I'm so glad I've already lost all faith in humanity.

Still, I seem to be digging a bigger hole somehow...

Posted by: Lapras May 29 2009, 04:26 PM

My personal opinion; it's wrong, disgusting, vile, sinful, and is a one-way ticket to Hell.

BUT... I think that others should not be denied the right. God did give us the ability to do whatever we want for whatever reason. It's a test, people. Pushing religious beliefs? Wrong. Do I do it? Sometimes. Do I always mean it? No. The thing is that God wanted us to follow his example. He gave us free will. Let us give others that free will as well. But we are all responsible for our actions, you've got to admit. You're free to do whatever you want religiously. So far, I have not seen one reason why guys can't marry guys and gals can't marry gals that is not religious. This is why our Founding Fathers separated Church and State. Religion and politics don't mix. It's like water and oil.

Posted by: cassie159 May 29 2009, 04:33 PM

I'm all for gay marriage i don't care if other people get married because i don't really see how it can affect anyone else lives, no ones gonna die if some people get married.It shouldn't matter what gender they are if they love each other enough to want to be together forever.

Posted by: RheaDark May 29 2009, 04:42 PM

Hate to hear you think of it like that, but at the very least you're letting them have a choice. I approve of that.

Posted by: Lapras May 29 2009, 04:48 PM

Just my belief. It's my theory that it may appear there are just as many haters of a belief as there are lovers. =]

All of this mumbo-jumbo about sexuality makes me want to become a Eunuch.

Posted by: RheaDark May 29 2009, 08:35 PM

You... don't want your... bits?

Yeahkay.

Posted by: Iulius Caesar May 30 2009, 05:08 PM

Looks like Hell just became a party with all of the awesome LGBT celebs and my friends. And me.

Posted by: Ludocx May 30 2009, 05:10 PM

me too, lets get it started in here wooo lol

Posted by: Grovyle May 30 2009, 05:54 PM

People don't just sit in Hell.
It is called Hell for a reason.
Eternal torture maybe.
If you go there, you won't have any time to party.

Posted by: RheaDark May 30 2009, 05:59 PM

I'm sure that being tortured eternally is better than hanging out with people like you. As well as perhaps all the righteous christian people who say slavery's okay, and killing heathens is fine, etc etc.

Unless... our punishment is to hang out with people like that?!

Posted by: OnSight May 30 2009, 06:01 PM

*Sigh* It's like the kindergarten toys...where you put the circle in the circle hole...

It's simple. The stick goes into the hole...the stick doesn't go into another stick and holes don't go into holes..

The butt is made for things to go out of not into..

Posted by: RheaDark May 30 2009, 06:07 PM

Is your way of thinking really that simplistic?

Wow. Just... wow.

Posted by: Sarge May 30 2009, 06:41 PM

LOL @ OnSight!

Replace the stick with a turkey baster full of babies and STDs, and you've got it!

Posted by: Kai Reddtail May 30 2009, 07:25 PM

That's ridiculous. What the hell do you care what other consenting adults do with their own bodies? How in the world does it affect you?


And straight people get STI's just like everyone else.


And as a supporter of all sexualities, an athiest, and many other things, many Christians would say I'll be joining that party in hell too.

Posted by: ninjacookie May 30 2009, 07:50 PM

I'd rather be in hell with the people I care about than live in paradise when I know they suffer. When my Uncle took his own life, they told me he went to hell for it. I was all like, wtf? How can they think they go to heaven just because they go to church when they always beat me yet the only adult who loved and protected me goes to hell just because he thought he was being a burden on everyone?

Besides, pain is nothing to me. I've taken so much why even care anymore? After you suffer enough only your emotions on the inside will feel anything. Trust me, I've been there.

And really, I don't believe in possibly fictional extremes of pleasure and pain in the afterlife, but even if you do answer me this. How are two people of the same gender saying their vows under the name of god an offense worthy of eternal suffering?

Posted by: Lapras May 30 2009, 07:55 PM

We don't need to get vicious... just a suggestion, not mini-modding... Dx

It's only a matter of opinion and religion, anyway. Most Christians do believe it's a ticket to Hell. I do. But I do not think I have the right to dictate what other people's rights are. Government is one thing; who are you going to listen to: popular opinion or the lesser opinions? Right now, as far as I can see, it's somewhat equal... for now, at least. The main reason why I'm sort of for gay rights mainly is because I'm not straight. I'm asexual. I'm biased and a "third-party" at the same time. Equally as persuasive to me, the belief that I cannot control others' beliefs. I'm not saying preventing gays from their "rights," quote-unquote is bad, but I won't say it's good, either.

Posted by: Ashi May 30 2009, 08:08 PM

People like what they like. Now I have NO beef what so ever with straights or homosexuals. I've played on both sides of the street, it's a blast either way. I'm currently have been dating a man, which must make me 'straight'. But I do feel rather awful to know my sister who has been a Lesbian since.. well.. ever, could never get married to the person she loves because of all the people who are just dead set against it.

I'm personally much more worried about the creeps who get off on screwing animals, dead things, and.. who knows what. I met a guy who liked to get it on with very young/small children/babies. Let's worry about these screw balls, shall we? People are literally attracted to anything. Homosexuals are the LEAST of our worries, that's just what I think.

Let them do what they want, it's not hurting you. Isn't that the basic line? They will do their thing, you do yours. c:

Then again most people wouldn't even bother to consider my opinion since I don't believe in religion(s).

Posted by: Kai Reddtail May 30 2009, 08:12 PM

I'm not trying to be vicious. I'm just so tired of people saying things that might make homosexuals feel bad (for something that's not wrong in the first place, IMO) with arguments that have been used so repeatedly everywhere. that was just another version of the often used and always defeated "It's not natural" argument, near as I can tell.


Even though I don't like your opinion of it at all, I respect you very much for not letting your opinion get in the way of others rights.


My main thing is,
I'm just having such a hard time wrapping my head around why people can't just let other people be happy when it's not hurting or affecting your life in any way.

I don't understand. people are utterly against letting other people be happy with no real negative effects to themselves. Really just don't get it.

Grossed out/morally opposed to homosexual sex? Don't have it!
Against homosexual marriage? Don't marry someone of the same sex.
This goes on.

If you think its gross or you're against it, whats the big deal? So don't do it. I mean, if you truly believe they're due some kind of retribution for it in the afterlife, let it happen in the afterlife and leave them alone.

I just wish everyone would let everyone be equal and happy.

(These are mostly general "you's" not personal ones.)

Posted by: Iulius Caesar May 31 2009, 09:05 AM

I think that the Church, all religions in general, should shut up regarding a state matter. The United States, although based on Christian values and religious freedom, seperated Church and State a long time ago. This issue came time and time again with different presidents of different religions with people worrying that they'd bring their religion into politics. Simply put you can't bring religion into politics. Let politics be politics and religion be religion. Lawmakers and politicians must do what's best for a country; even if it goes against what they believe. Welcome to politics.

What's best for the Unites States, in my opinion, is the legalization of Same-Sex Marriage in all fifty states. I'm not talking married under an alter with the religion stuff involved, that is the Church's domain. I'm talking State Union, where a homosexual couple can live together, be called "married" and receive the financial and social benefits of a heterosexual married couple. Remember that there are two types of marriage: State and Church. Church marriage has nothing to do with the financial/social benefits of marriage, it's almost like a status and the Church says you're married according to religious law. State marriage actually produces the benefits of union, with people being able to file differently on taxes and the whole shabang.

Posted by: Vero Jun 8 2009, 08:15 PM

You love who you love. Enough said.

Who are we to judge other people, or tell them how to live their lives. Isn't that up to whatever god you believe in ( or not), to decide at the end?

People should have to same rights, no matter what sexual orientation they choose. Just my 2c

Posted by: Lolikon Jun 9 2009, 04:06 AM

While I'm not totally used to being around it I still think that they should be allowed to marry. At least they should get the same rights as a married couple as well as a place outside of the church where they can get married. What's really annoying me lately is the phrase "I'm angry/upset that California of all places banned same sex marriage!" or here's one I heard from a presenter we had at school preaching tolerance for everyone to us "Well I'd hope that since we're in California you'd all be accepting of homosexuals" That's a terrible stereotype and really people are just setting themselves up for disappointment if they think that the majority of California will accept them with open arms. I'm not saying they shouldn't but really I just don't like hearing that all the time.. Thanks to that many people not from here think it's a fun joke to ask or tell people "Oh you're from California or San Francisco? Haha you must be a faggot" Irrelevant but I still wish it would stop.

Posted by: RheaDark Jun 9 2009, 08:42 AM

Zoreta already post this? I will, I guess.

Posted by: AlanaMae Jun 9 2009, 08:46 AM

It pisses me off how people look at same sex marriage all like EWW OMG GROSS. I think its okay. I support it and I'm not gay or Lesbian. I think people should have the right to choose who they love. I mean we have all freedoms except that. It seems and its not fair to those who are in love with someone of their own gender.

Posted by: Keshi Jun 9 2009, 12:25 PM

I belong to the Roman Catholic Church, and we very openly welcome homosexuals and same-sex marriage. Love doesn't have a gender.

Posted by: RheaDark Jun 9 2009, 05:19 PM

... what planet do you live on?

*Shot*

Posted by: dotPHUNK Jun 10 2009, 12:15 AM

I am against same sex marriage but I am all for same sex rights. If that makes any sense. :\

Posted by: Aknara Jun 10 2009, 08:58 AM

So.. boys turn gay because they spend more time with girls?

You'd think if anything, being able to be comfortable around women would make them straight because they'd be able to pick up easier. lol.

I am sooooo Soooo for gay marriage. Someone tell me who it hurts for 2 people that love each other to get married? Huh? Who?

I will be married next year. Will my marriage be cheapened because 2 homosexual people that love each other as much as I love my future husband can be married? No.

It won't affect my marriage at all.

The only reason gay marriage can't happen is because of a book that was put together by a pagan roman emperor, The Bible.

Funny how a book that is supposed to promote love and whatnot has managed to cause so much hate and misunderstanding towards our fellow man.

Posted by: RheaDark Jun 10 2009, 12:53 PM

As in against the religious type of marriage but not the government-created marriage?

Posted by: Atom Jun 10 2009, 10:29 PM

That...makes no sense. Marriage is one of the rights we're seeking.

Posted by: Rikuman Jun 10 2009, 11:18 PM

Same-sex marriage is such a touchy topic for me, seeing as how I am homosexual.
I could go on for hours about what I think and why I think it, but I've calmed down a little after reading some of the supporting arguments added to the debate.

So, instead, I'll just say this:

Forget gender, forget sexuality. If someone told you you weren't allowed to do something because they didn't like it, what would you feel? If someone told you you weren't allowed to love your boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife/whoever, how would you feel? If someone told you that you didn't deserve the same basic rights that everyone else was allowed, how would you feel?

Marriage has a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo added to it. Denying homosexuals that is taking away legal rights.
Marriage has a lot of love, emotion, commitment added to it. Denying homosexuals that is taking away their right to the pursuit of happiness.

Homosexuals do not deserve to have their rights stripped from them. It's "not right", you say. It's "not natural". Many things on this world are unnatural. Plastics, man-made structures, the works. You say God thinks it's bad? Well, according to certain religions, you're not allowed to eat certain things, do certain things. But you do them anyway, don't you? Most people do.

Basically, I'm a person. I'm a human. I just so happen to like girls. I happen to fall for them. I happen to love someone now, and I don't appreciate being called "unnatural" or having my right to love be taken from me.

What right do you have to take that from me? What right do you have to decide for me that I'm not allowed to get married?
As far as I'm concerned, you don't have that right.

Posted by: RheaDark Jun 11 2009, 09:16 AM

I think (he? she?) may be referring to religious marriage and not the government "marriage" with benefits, but i'm not sure. (Either way, not good.)

Posted by: Raitozaki Jun 13 2009, 07:06 PM

I support same-sex marriage. I don't find homosexuality disgusting in the least. The funny thing is, I'm heterosexual, so it's not like I'm supporting myself. I've been raised to believe that love is love regardless of the situation. I've also come to know that even in nature, animals tend to have sex with the same gender (the more intelligent species).

Honestly, I think it's completely ridiculous that people have banned same-sex marriage. Yes, it goes against Christianity. Does it ever occur to other people that not everyone follows that religion? I, for one, do not. I also don't think that religion should run a country.

Many centuries ago, it was ruled that there should be a separation of church and state. Obviously that line has been blurred, and almost completely erased. Yes, we're allowed to chose our own religions, but for whatever reason, the government can have religion included in it.

I fail to see the logic in that. Completely.

If two people are in love, it shouldn't be up to the general public whether or not they can get married. If they don't effect your lives personally, why the hell should you even care in the first place? If it's not bothering you, your relationships, or your live in any way, then don't bother.

I understand that some people are religion, and believe that only women and men should marry. I'm going to assume that it's mostly because the Bible says so. But again, not everyone follows that religion.

It's just my opinion, and I don't think people should dictate how others should live.

Posted by: eneko Jun 13 2009, 07:11 PM

Same - sex marriage to me , I don't really care if someone gets married whether they be gay or straight . Its their choice if they want to do that or not . I am a God believing christian , so at the school I'm at they always have something to say about it , I know a ton of Bisexual people that go to my school , so I'm sure if they met someone of the same - sex they would want to marry them later in life . I think its their choice , they can do what they want . Plus people can't really stop them from being gay so , what are they gonna do ?

Posted by: LOLBat13 Jun 14 2009, 02:37 AM

I know this is from a while ago but @Blax, I never really formed a bond with my dad, and I'm much closer to my mom, and I hang out with chicks all the time, but thats to...well, you get the point of it, and I'm completly straight.

I'm like..,in the middle of being againist it, and being for it, casue truthfully it doesn't involve me at all. So I really don't care that much, it's not like if they do legalize gay marriage it'll do anything with anybody else. Some reasons that I'm againist it, is casue....its gross, and I know thats a dumb reason, but..it's just odd becasue a male is supposed to reproduce with a female, not another male.
Reasons for it. Just let them do whatever, It's not like they're gonna doing anything to you, it's not like they're gonna come into your house and kill you. It really doesn't matter.

Posted by: Poketoad Jun 14 2009, 02:42 AM

I am a Christian and a asian.
I hate gays, And i think its wrong to nature.
We all are animals, and being gays is wrong we should know that because we have developed over time when thae other animals haven't.
But wild animals and normal pet animals are not GAY.
If they know its wrong so why don't we know its wrong.
I have always said Gay is wrong.
The difference between two types of gay is feelings and gestures.
I hate them both.
But i have never thought that being lesbian is wrong.

Posted by: Chrona Jun 14 2009, 08:07 AM

Your point being...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

Look at my link above - There are hundreds of animal species that can be homo or bi sexual

Statements like this are why you sound like a moron, honestly speaking.

No, you just like watching lesbian porn. There is absolutely no difference in there being two guys and two girls, you think girls don't have sex with each other? You're just biased for god knows what reason, and make stuff up to "support" your meaningless argument based on facts I've just proven wrong.

Fail less, please

Posted by: Kai Reddtail Jun 14 2009, 11:29 AM

From what I read, it seems that you're not going to try and stop Gay Marriage, which is nice. But I do have to point out that these aren't valid reasons. You seem to see your own flaws in the "gross" idea, so I'll leave it.

Love is separate from reproduction. Sometimes a opposite sex couple who love eachother will reproduce. But know what? I'm straight, and I'm not having kids ever. Marriage does not inherently mean kids. Not everybody thinks reproduction is that important.



First of all, what does being asian have to do with it?

Chrona's already covered why this is false, so I won't repeat.
But it might also interest you to know that scientists think Bonobos (a small primate considered to be closest to humans) may be all bisexual.



So, two women loving each other is okay, but two men loving each other is wrong?

You'll have to explain this one to me. I REALLY don't see how you figured this little gem.

Posted by: RheaDark Jun 14 2009, 11:55 AM

*Facepalm*

Really now, lezzies are fine but gays aren't? i don't know how to respond to that level of idiocy. Anyways, everything else seems to already have been covered by ^

Posted by: Latias Eevee Jun 14 2009, 03:31 PM

Pray tell, what makes romatic love between males gross and not so much for females? What makes it grosser than heterosexual love?

Some married couples are againsts having children, some can't have children, if it's about having kids these people shouldn't marry either. Why do we need more when there are many who could be adopted.

People shouldn't bring the Bible/religion into this(baka government it's supposed to be SEPARATE! Little guy has a voice!), it was written a long time ago for a world mostly different from our own. Abraham slept with a servant. Jacob had children with four women. Jacob, David, Solomon, and several others were polygamists. Jesus and Paul were single and preached indifference to earthly attachments. The Bible preaches against divorce (and look how many people completely ignore that). Many translations are at least slightly inaccurate and can be taken in several ways, I've found a few sites that have mentioned this for several words including (it's been a while so I don't remember to many specific things...) "man" (with at least one case where humanoid would be more accurate, the literal meaning of the Greek word being "a man faced creature"), "sky", "earth", and one of the biggest misunderstood words in the English language "love" (there's almost always several ways in another language to say this word with it's different meanings, but in English without a context it's usually is assumed to one thing). The Bible tells of blood sacrifices and not cutting hair ( noes! The guys had long hair, thez is girly!) The bible supports slavery. Jesus is said to have reached out to everyone, he didn't hate anybody. The bible says to love everyone, but most don't, they use it for their own means rather than it's true purpose. Many don't read all of it or analyze it, and their faiths are easily shattered. Now I haven't read the entire bible myself (I've tried to read a bit when I was made to go to church, but I often forgot my bible and my place), but I've heard/read a lot from others.

I find it amusing that many who claim to be Chirstian often don't quote the bible or tell where the phrase is located when it comes to many subjects, especially this. Stop whining and complaining, homosexuals aren't hurting you or bothering you...unless one of one of your more radical self-rightous hell-fire spitters got to them first.

I understand not all Christians/people who follow the Bible are like some of the descriptions and I don't mean to insult anyone. I'm not sure how else to word it or make my point (I hope it wasn't lost in there...). Growing up with a person who is negative, made me and my brothers go to church (after not going for years) while not going herself, not reading the Bible herself...among other things doesn't help with what I've seen and heard from others/news articles................

Posted by: Illithian Jun 15 2009, 01:38 AM

What I really hate about this debate is when people bring up AIDS. That disease alone is probably the absolute largest gay stereotype there is. Firstly, straight 'normal' sex can bring about AIDS. Unsafe sex, no matter which kind, remains unsafe, whether or not its two men or a man and a woman.

Okay, onto my 'belief'. Personally, I think gay marriage should be allowed. I live in a part of the country where I basically never see a gay couple anywhere. Actually, I've only seen a few around here in my entire life. I live in Seattle, where its so totally frowned upon that theres actually sections of west Seattle where people avoid it purposely and where real estate sells for rock bottom prices. I know I shouldn't make an opinion because I barely ever see gay couples, but I don't think its disgusting.

Think about what you feel like when you pass a sexy woman. No really, think about that. Sometimes you wont feel anything, because your distracted for some other reason, but you know what I mean. And especially realize that you notice that that woman is attractive. Now think for a minute. What would it be like if every time you saw an attractive male, you felt and thought the exact same thing. Wouldn't it be weird? I bet most of you can't actually imagine what that would be like. And many don't want to. But how unfair would it be if you were forced to? If you didn't have a choice, even when you, above all, didn't want to.

You think gay people choose to be gay? Why. Please, tell me what reasoning you have for someone choosing to be gay. You can probably come up with some kind of an argument related to being good friends with girls, or something related to that, but really, there ARE no perks. For your entire life, as soon as someone finds out your gay, you'll be avoided. Put down. Ignored. Why would you choose that life?

So, assuming its not a choice, where does your beloved Christianity come in? If everything has a reason, then there must be some reason as to why gay people exist. If they are born that way, then isn't it the fault of their creator? I understand that sometimes gay people grow up to be gay because they didn't play sports, so they didn't mingle as much with guys and spent more time with girls (which, ironically, can be a cause of people being gay once through puberty). Is that the fault of the kid? No, its not, because 6 year olds are often stubborn and refuse to play sports for no reason at all.

Also. For those of you who are married. Imagine what it would be like if you couldn't have joint assets with your wife, couldn't share any of the legal privileges of being married, couldn't adopt, didn't have visitation rights, or anything really. Is that how gay couples feel? Is that right? Politically correct is bullshit, I don't care about that. It comes down to morals. The US was built on the ideal that all men are created equal. The right to life, liberty, and property. Are gay people 'people'? Do they have those rights? No. Is that right? Is that moral?

Honestly, I can't understand people who are homophobic. It just seems ignorant. I totally understand if you find gay couples kissing in the street disgusting, but should you really take away their rights because of it? How can you use Christianity as an excuse for it when it calls for treating all people of all races equally? The church is as corrupt as the government is, bleeding with money. And what about gay people who commit suicide because of all the social hate? How can you LIVE with yourself if you know that you contributed to the reason they died?

Posted by: Iulius Caesar Jun 16 2009, 03:42 PM

Humans are the only animals that have the ability to reason and think critically. All other animals act purely on instinct. Namely the instinct to reproduce. Although animals were designed for heterosexual sex, a good portion of animals have homosexual sex.

And you say that being gay is wrong but being lesbian is fine? Well, um, how do I put this...
You. Are. A. Fucking. Idiot.



I don't mind not having the Church-granted right because I'm not Catholic anyway and stopped caring about what the Church says regarding this matter. However, if you are against state marriage then you're just contradicting yourself because rights that we're fighting for come from state/civil marriage.

Posted by: Celdin Jun 16 2009, 04:03 PM

Honestly, this topic shouldn't even be an issue. People against same sex marriage are just bigots who are unwilling to see that gays deserve the same rights as everyone else. They are human beings who are in love, and don't deserve the treatment that they get from everyday people who don't understand them. I'm tired of people backing up their argument that gays shouldn't marry with the Bible. It's a freaking book. It's time we start seeing people for who they are, and give them the rights they were born with, here, in the USA.

Posted by: yuna359 Jun 16 2009, 04:18 PM

I believe anyone should be able to get married if they want to. Just because they're gay they can't get married?
That seems a little bit unfair don't you think? So what if their gay, they are human beings with emotions and feelings and desires just like heterosexual people do. Why can't they have the same rights?

"But its against God!" Hey news flash! Not everyone believes in God. What do we do with the ones who don't believe in God? Do we hand them a number and tell them we'll get back to that topic? No.

And for people who live in America like me, what about the constitution? Aren't all men created "equal" don't we all have "unalienable" rights that can't be taken from us? Doesn't the constitution state that we can't have one religion fixed on the nation? Yet we have our " God bless America" quote used again and again. I'm not gay, I'm bisexual but I believe everyone should be able to be married no matter who they are, their sex, or they're sexual orientation.

Posted by: Galahawk Jun 16 2009, 06:13 PM

This is one of those few hot-debate issues I've ever felt that strongly inclined towards. And once again, I shall give my two cents.

First and foremost, I am 100% for gay marriage. Marriage should be a mutual right. If anyone thinks that it's wrong, I say they should keep it to themselves and let the couple have their peace. After all, I don't see gay couples bashing straight couples (at least, not so far), so how is it fair for anyone who's straight to bash gays? Truth is, it's not. I would know, I have gay/bi friends and relatives.
Though, I mostly have a beef with anyone who's strictly against gay marriage who's using their religion to back up their arguments. Religion is a belief, it's not a set truth. And ESPECIALLY, you shouldn't get on anybody's case about it that doesn't believe in the same thing as you.
(I SO wanna high-five Celdin for saying what they did. Seriously, it's a book. It can only say what the people who wrote it said, and those people are DEAD)

To put it in simple terms for those who are against gay marriage, imagine if this situation was completely reversed. Imagine a world where straight people and couples are prejudiced, and only gay marriage is looked upon as "right." This is how those who are gay feel in comparison to people who are against gays and gay marriage.
But personally, gay marriage doesn't affect my life in any way, and it most likely won't even if it was banned. I'm not gay, so I wouldn't have the same opinion that someone who is gay would. In conclusion, just keep your beliefs to yourself and this world would be a much better place. Let a couple be happy, regardless of their sexuality!

That's my two cents. There may have been some points floating around in my head that I failed to address, but those are the key points I wanted to get across, for the time being.

Posted by: Iulius Caesar Jun 17 2009, 11:19 AM

Most Christians argue that it is in the bible, but I have yet to see it myself. The Sodom and Gomorrah incident is thrown out of the window when we look at the laws back then--the men there were, yes, trying to rape the angel, however, they also disrespected a visitor--a divine one at that.

And yes, the Bible is a book. But to the most dominant religious group in the world, it's the closest portal to their diety, God.



Well, in all technicality, all "men" actually referred to White, Protestant, Straight, Anglo men who owned land.

But the Constitution is open for interpretation and that's exactly what got civil rights for minorities. Considering people of LGBT origin can be considered a minority, it works.

Posted by: Lino Ludocx Kaito Jun 17 2009, 11:22 AM

I agree with almost everything Iulius has said, and I would also like to know where in the bible it actually says gay marriage is wron, or being gay for that

Posted by: Iulius Caesar Jun 17 2009, 11:26 AM

Some say that, because God made Adam and Eve, that was the official definition of marriage. The Church does not say being gay is wrong, that's the biased fucks who deserve to go to hell. The Church says that the homosexual actions (aka gay sex) are wrong.

Posted by: Lino Ludocx Kaito Jun 17 2009, 11:27 AM

So it's not written down, despite the fact its proven that priests have done stuff world leaders have etc etc, make me proud to be bi for some reason lol

Posted by: Hagane no Yuurei Jun 17 2009, 04:21 PM

I don't know if I've posted in here before. I have a really bad memory, and suffice to say it that I'm really lazy.

My opinion is: C) I'm perfectly fine with it.

Now, bring on the madly religious douchebags.

Posted by: Sinned Banana Jun 17 2009, 06:58 PM

I don't really care. If people love each other enough and want to marry, then I say go for it!

Posted by: Eric1 Jun 17 2009, 07:11 PM

I too dont care. They can do anything they want because its none of my business.

Posted by: Kai Reddtail Jun 17 2009, 11:14 PM

This made me smile. It may also help with that annoyingly persistent "It's not natural" arguement:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/06/05/gay-penguins-adopt005.html

Posted by: Mande Jun 18 2009, 04:59 AM

Well..I'm pretty involved in this debate, because I'm gay.
When I hear people say: "It's against nature..they do not have children.." I think: "Oh..look how presumptuous are those people who believe to know what "nature" does.."
If nature created me..it means that I'm right for nature!!! The truth is that those people who are so stupid to pretend to know what nature does..are against nature! Because they don't rispect her, don't accept her..but they pretend only to impose their opinions, pretty stupid opinions.

p.s. I'm sorry for my english..I'm italian..I hope that my opinion is understandable!^^

Posted by: Iulius Caesar Jun 18 2009, 10:51 AM

The only reason it's considered "not natural" is because men and women were designed to mate with one another to procreate. Men and men cannot reproduce, nor can women and women.

Posted by: Kai Reddtail Jun 18 2009, 11:27 AM

Natural means it happens in nature.

There is significant evidence that it happens in nature.

Posted by: Mande Jun 18 2009, 01:35 PM

I know why they say "not natural", but nature isn't only procreate...it is also love! And those who can't understand this..they are narrow minded..

Posted by: Doozydoe Jun 18 2009, 06:27 PM

As long nobodies forced, and it's consenting adults I'm fine with it.

Civil rights trump religious rights.

Posted by: deon007 Jun 18 2009, 06:33 PM

in a religous since i think gay marriage is wrong but i'm not going to start stoning these people since the bible also says judge not less ye be judged they self so leave those people alone if god has a problem with it he'll deal with it when the person dies and thats all i got to say on the subject

Posted by: Kai Reddtail Jun 18 2009, 08:10 PM

Well it's debate section, not a drop your opinion and run section, so I hope thats not all. lol.

I just want to clarify, you think it's wrong, but would you take action to make it illegal?

Posted by: deon007 Jun 18 2009, 08:13 PM

yes since i'm not god and i have no right to judge these people i'm here saying that we need to leave these people alone and live are own lives

Posted by: Memento Mori Jun 18 2009, 08:16 PM

Ironic, considering their God voluptuously annihilated two cities in his chornicle in his quest to be a consistent jackass.

I'm just going to wait by here and wonder if anyone can actually come up with a feasible argument that's not based on religion or personal insecurity.

Posted by: deon007 Jun 18 2009, 08:18 PM

lolz dought it since i cant think of any other reasons there might be

Posted by: Kai Reddtail Jun 18 2009, 08:21 PM

Lol. Okay, I've got no qualms with you then.

You'll be waiting a while for even an attempt, I think. lol.

Posted by: deon007 Jun 18 2009, 08:23 PM

lolz i'd bet alote of money that no can come up this a differnt reason then that

Posted by: ZeroVX Jun 19 2009, 03:11 PM

My policy on gay marriage is a simple one:

So long as they don't try to get me involved, they can do whatever they want.

Seriously, how does it really affect anyone if two men or two women get married? What difference does it really make?

Posted by: Annakyoyama358 Jun 19 2009, 11:04 PM

Someone on that gay penguin article made a nice comment, and i'd like to quote it here:

"No one has the right to suggest that gay people "realign themselves". If you are gay, you are gay and that isn't going to change. Do you think heterosexuals could "realign" and go gay? I didn't think so."

I opened the door. Bring it on.

Posted by: Mande Jun 20 2009, 04:58 AM

Exactly! It's the perfect answer.

Posted by: Iulius Caesar Jun 20 2009, 08:48 AM

Sadly there's some crazy people who actually believe it's possible to "come out straight". There's a book on it. I personally want to burn the book and the author.

It's impossible to change who you are when what you are is deeply embedded into your brain. Unless you want a lobotomy.

Posted by: sqtodd Jun 20 2009, 03:43 PM

my uncle is gay, and him and his boyfriend have wanted to get married for a very long time. they have been unable to because we live in Utah. Utah is the most red state this far east and up north. they will never decide to legalize same sex marriage here unless its a country wide decision. people even called people in California and said to not legalize same sex marriage there. in Utah you cant even have same sex unions, whether your gay or not.

i honestly think the supreme court should make a final decision on this. they should ether say all states yes or no. don't leave it up to the states to decide. the people who run the state government are 80% conservative, and will always say no. it should be a country wide decision where its legal everywhere or nowhere. if you get married in Iowa, where its legal, if you go to any other state, the marriage would be void. that wrong.

Posted by: Arch Jun 20 2009, 10:16 PM

I'm in favor of same-sex marriage. I don't buy the god argument nor am I so insecure that I fear things that are different from what is defined as normal. I also don't buy the nurture vs. nature argument. I have a friend named Andrew who was raised in the most catholic home you can think of. Guess what, he turned out gay. When he told his parents they tried to send him to a "correction facility." That didn't work, he's still gay. So being gay seems to me like a part of nature. If I recall correctly God created all of nature. So my question to all the evangelicals out there is, if being gay is an abomination and gay marriage is against god; why did he create gayness?

I'm also against making gay marriage a state's rights issue. What that basically says to the gay community is "Don't come and take your rights, wait until the rest of us approve your right to your rights." I think it is despicable that some want to make it a state issue. Did we leave slavery or segregation as a state issue? Why should this be treated any differently? Supreme Court needs to rule on this, hopefully they will reach the lawful decision (although we know how Conservative the US Supreme Court is).

By the way, I live in California and I was shocked and angry when Prop 8 was passed.

Posted by: RheaDark Jun 21 2009, 01:02 AM

Heck, if god's so great why'd it create misery in general? The tree which started it all? Lucifer, so he couldn't rebel?

It could have prevented many things, but nooo...

Posted by: XxXIrisXxXRavenXxXLoverXxX Jun 21 2009, 01:05 AM

For same Sex dating and marriage (even though I probably spelled it wrong)
To put the whole excuse "god gave blah and blah to blah and blah for blah"
God or goddess also gave more than one "cavity" in a male body,
and also more than one type of bodily functions.
If god or goddess didn't want it to happen, and if he, or she is so powerfull to you,
then why give us the ability to do so?
Why make it to where we CAN do this. If we're not supposed to?
What lesson would we possibly have to learn from it?
Other than love can be found anywhere.
We are a speices that tears itself apart,
there isn't more damage that we can do by having it be legalized.
I want to be able ot marry a girl if I want, and a boy if I want (definatly not at the same time though against that one)
It's my life, so shouldn't it be my choice.
No one has the right to tell me or anyone else who I'm supposed to marry.

It's natural, and it's okay.
My science teacher has explained it dozens of times (because I have immiture people in my class)
that Yes there are homosexual animals.
it's okay to do it.
So it should be legale.
The only reason it isn't is because people can't accept that people who are diffrent in just a small way get to have the same rights as them.
Our nation is basicaly a community who's goal is to be able to stand together. But While standing together as a NATION we ourselves seperate as individuals. Which shouldn't happen because it just causes contraversey, and some people take it to a iffrent level than others.

all in all I'm for it.

Posted by: Mande Jun 21 2009, 12:50 PM

I'm so happy that there are people wise and broad minded like you!! If everybody wouldn't be scared of "different things" it would be a better world to live in..but I'm thinking that not all the people have the ability to understand that "different" is not bad..

Posted by: sqtodd Jun 21 2009, 06:55 PM

its not that they "cant' think different, everyone is able to. how you were raised weighs heavily on what your opinion is on subjects like this.

Posted by: Lightningstreak Jun 21 2009, 07:25 PM

Honestly, I don't care. My policy on gay marriage is that if two people love each other enough that they want to get married, they can do it. If it makes them happy, then fine by me. As for the God argument, I was taught that God loves everyone. So, why shouldn't he love gay people just as much as straight people?

Sorry to add my opinion late. xC

Posted by: XxXIrisXxXRavenXxXLoverXxX Jun 21 2009, 08:55 PM

No it doesnt weight heavily on someone's oppinion. It weighs just a small amount. Truth be told how many people remeber what happened to them at the age of 7? Not many. I was raised that it's weird and not right but should be okay. I disagreee strongly with my mother. she hates bisexuals. And I am one. I say it's prefectly natural and is perefectly fine. The only thing a persons enviornment can do is put an idea into their head. Weather or not they beilive in it is up to that person and that person alone. They have no other influence other than what ideas are given. they have the complete choice to stray away or not.

Posted by: Snackfast Jun 22 2009, 06:25 PM

god didnt make a plug for another plug, no, he made a plug with an outlet. see the message?

Posted by: Kai Reddtail Jun 22 2009, 07:18 PM

Nobody ever reads previous posts.

I'll just start with:

You're god isn't my god, so I don't care what "god made." See the message?

Posted by: XxXIrisXxXRavenXxXLoverXxX Jun 22 2009, 08:37 PM

I agree, I came out a year or two as being bi, and told my friends "untill I can figure out which I like better I'll stay this way" I tried very hard to figure it out, I like them the sam, and I can't change or even force myself to change it. (yeah I tried that for the people who said ewww, then realised I didn't care.)

how many other outlets are on a man?
and how many otehr plugs are on a woman?

Posted by: XxXIrisXxXRavenXxXLoverXxX Jun 22 2009, 08:37 PM

I agree, I came out a year or two as being bi, and told my friends "untill I can figure out which I like better I'll stay this way" I tried very hard to figure it out, I like them the sam, and I can't change or even force myself to change it. (yeah I tried that for the people who said ewww, then realised I didn't care.)

how many other outlets are on a man?
and how many otehr plugs are on a woman?

Posted by: Sher Jun 22 2009, 08:43 PM

I don't see why they are pushing back gay marriage. I mean they have now legalized a drug (or are about to. There are more pot stores popping up in Cali now) in the US. Might as well make it so EVERYONE can get married. Who cares if the part fits. God believes love over sins. He will forgive you for your sins.

Posted by: Poopsy Jun 22 2009, 11:36 PM

The only message I see is that you're a typical close-minded Christian...

Posted by: RheaDark Jun 22 2009, 11:59 PM

The message is that you're an idiot.

Posted by: Snackfast Jun 23 2009, 12:38 AM

well, this nation is going to hell in a hand basket, might as well bomb us, were better off with it.

and i dont have a religion

Posted by: ZeroVX Jun 23 2009, 10:37 AM

A.....a....are you serious?

Did you actually mean that? Really?

I'd make a comment about your lack of intelligence, but that's already been done.

Posted by: Kai Reddtail Jun 23 2009, 06:10 PM

Then why did you try and argue against Gay Marriage with a religious arguement? You're making no sense at all.

Posted by: SilverLynx Jun 24 2009, 11:03 AM

The issue here is that Christians think they have the final say on marriage even though marriage IS NOT A CHRISTIAN INSTITUTION.

People have lifebonded, handfasted and so forth long before Christians came into the picture.

So if someone wants to marry someone they love, let them. I don't care if that union is male/male, female/female, or female/male. I can deal with incestuous relationships, too, so long as they understand that it's not good to breed so closely related.

So long as the union isn't illegal (underage, to an animal) I have no issue with it.

Few people are so open minded.

Posted by: GodEneru Jun 24 2009, 08:24 PM

1)Did you know there are male animals that, excuse the word, hump another male animal of the same species and that rhesus macaques actualy manage to reach anal intercourse? or even that two species of fish that can become trans-gender?(Clown fish and I don't remember the name of the other one)[sex changes do have something to do with sexual orientation] Having said that I don't understand what strong laws/forces of nature you are talking about cuz they seem pretty unreal to me.
2)We complain as much as straight people do, come on AIDS is a virus therfore can't distingush between gay or straight.
3)Chimps also do it for fun.
4)You say it as if sex was something taken out of a ghost story.
5)I agree that politicaly correct things are a bit too much.
6)White people have earnd to be called racists.

Let me apologise to the rest of you people for the agresion but I don't like people to mess with us: the gay community.

Posted by: Zoreta Jun 26 2009, 04:16 PM

Here we go again!

So then, how come the percentage of gays isn't higher among boys with single mothers? Because it isn't something that is 'caught.'


Relevance, please.


Oh boy, here comes the BS.
Some people are born with both sets- they are called hermaphrodites, and it is natural.
If we 'weren't made to,' how come we can, and how come other animals can and do? Because SEX IS NOT JUST FOR PROCREATION.
Oh, so then people should only have sex in order to procreate, and everything that can't procreate is unnatural! Quick, we better take away the marriages of sterile people! The minute a man gets a vasectomy, boom, he should no longer be considered married to his wife. It is ;unnatural and should not be supported after all! Their wife could go with another man and have kids, but she wants to be in a union that *gasp* can't result in children! We can't have that!

If you want to plead 'gay genes,' why do detrimental genes get passed on? They kill the child as an infant, so they can not be 'passed on...' They must be the parents' fault too, because obviously, genes are never recessive and a gene always shows up every single time is gets transferred to the children. That's why we all look exactly like our parents!
...wait.



I'll just paste this from the abortion thread...

Sex evolved as a means to procreate. However, it has developed other uses- every behavior is a multitasker in animals. Animals have sex for things other than procreation. We know that dolphins do it for pleasure- heck, dolphins will rape each other. Pack animals (especially canines) will hump each other to show dominance.

Heck, Bonobos use sex to greet each other, to settle conflicts, and to make up after the conflict has been settled. If they discover something new, they will get excited and have sex. Even sterile members will have sex because it is such an important part of their communication.

You want to tell me that sex is only for procreation?




What does this have to do with anything? That isn't even political correctness- that's racism, except against whites.

Posted by: danniedelishh Jun 28 2009, 09:41 PM

I've read about half of this thread, and the only thing I can think about it is that I am absolutely disgusted.

I mean, everyone is a human being.
How can one human being deny another of their rights?
Have we learned nothing from the civil rights movement?

For all thirteen years of my life, I have grown up around people who despise gays and gay marriage.
My family, my family's friends, and my own friends are all anti-gay.
My grandfather's son came out as gay more than twenty years ago. He hasn't spoken to his son since.
My father kicked my brother out of the house several times, just because he thought my brother was gay. Even though he wasn't. But like that would have mattered.
I am the only person in my entire family who not only accepts homosexuality, but who also encourages it.
I feel terrible for those people who have to live in fear of who they are for their entire lives, just because of what other people think.

I just cannot stand those who feel the need to think that they are superior to other people, and that they can say what they can and cannot do.
I honestly cannot see what the hell is so wrong about same-sex marriage.
I mean, when it comes down to it, love is love.
And love is such a wonderful thing.
And I don't mean to get all cheesy, but whatever. I think it's the most amazing thing in the world.
So sue me.~

And it's not like people choose to be gay or straight. That's simply how they're born.

To all those people who can't stand gays, what have they ever done to you?
Nothing. That's what.
But what have you done to them?
You've ridiculed them, denied them of their rights, and have made them feel like utter dirt.
If there's anything disgusting in the entire world, that's it.

So like, obviously I support same-sex marriage.

And to everyone who opposes this, I hope you like my icon. I just fetched it just for you guys! :3

Haters to the left.~

Posted by: mehitsme Jun 29 2009, 04:05 AM

Man, I haven't posted in this thread forever. Reading all those new posts sucked.

Reposting some Bible quotes for ya'll to chew on.

" Corinthians 6:9-10 - Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

A major debate is translation. 'homosexual' is translated from arsenokoite. Some think 'arsenokoite' is male prostitutes again; or that the roots don't approve of any sexual acts, hetero and homo.

Buuut, apparently the next verse seems to clean the slate either way

Corinthians 6:11 - "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

The Leviticus passages are also up for debate. Though they seem to clearly condone homosexuality, I believe it is used to describe the homosexuality at the Pagen temples.

Also, many other 'homosexual is sinful' passages are not clear whether they are about homosexuality in general or prostitution. Either way, man wrote the bible, man translated it, and it is man's creation. Now, If God want to drop me a writing of his own; maybe I wouldn't be so skeptical. "


Anyway, I can't help but laugh at this this whole topic overall. It's like, 10% of people in the U.S. are openly homosexual. That's just openly and in the United States, not those who are in the closet or other countries. The U.S should take a message from our lovely hat, Canada, and start opening up some more acceptance( I swear, as the days pass, Canada just becomes better and better.)

Posted by: Zoreta Jun 29 2009, 11:14 AM

Last stat I heard, ~5% of men, and ~2% of women. Not the hugest number, but there are smaller minorities, and the church doesn't jump on them to try and take their rights.
And it is a church issue, because most of this country is Christian and most Christian churches teach that homosexual marriage shouldn't happen. People are small picture rather than big picture, and a lot of people believe that what they think is right is what everyone should think is right.

It seriously irks me to have civil rights up for public vote (rather than representative vote) because a good amount of the the population are sheep that can't separate what they want and what should happen.

Posted by: Adam Vengeance Jun 29 2009, 04:19 PM

I think Gays should be allowed a "Civil Union", but not a "Marriage." A marriage is a Holy bond between a man and a woman. I support Gays, and do believe they should be allowed American rights, but they cant demand to be "Married" in a church, and sue the priest, minister, etc. for not supporting them. Gays make a choice, that should be acknowledged, but not praised!

Posted by: Annakyoyama358 Jun 29 2009, 05:09 PM

Holy huh? So what of those of us WHO ARE AETHEIST and married by the state?
There's nothing fucking holy about marriage. IT'S A LEGAL INSTITUTION FIRST AND FOREMOST.
Those crazy pedo mormons were religiously married 'in the christian tradition' to 12 year old girls.
THEY WERN'T LEGALLY MARRIED.

The CHURCH does not make you married. I am married. I didn't get married in a church, there was NO FUCKING PRIEST/MINISTER OR OTHER RELIGIOUS EQUIVALENT INVOLVED.

We're not talking about church marriages. FUCK THE CHURCH. Marriage happens in a COURTHOUSE with a JUDGE signing the license.

No one gives a fuck if the Pope says gays can't be married. IT'S WHAT THE GOVERNMENT SAYS THAT MATTERS


As for your 'gays make a choice' bullshit, No, they don't.
Did you CHOOSE to be straight? NO. You just are.
Therefore, they did not CHOOSE to be Gay.
You are spouting ignorance.

Shouldn't be praised for being gay? No one's praising them!
before the civil war black men and women couldn't be TRULY married because their owners could sell them off at any time!
Then, blacks couldn't marry whites because they were 'impure.'
The SUPREME FUCKING COURT said that because blacks were every bit as HUMAN as whites, they should be allowed to marry.
If two lesbians or gays are human, why can't THEY marry?
The same reason blacks and whites couldn't marry 70 years ago.
BECAUSE RACIST/BIASED PIGS LIKE YOU POISON MINDS AGAINST THEM.

Gays are HUMAN and ought to have all the same rights as other humans, including the right to MARRY WHO THEY CHOOSE.

Posted by: stawberrylawi Jun 29 2009, 05:18 PM

I think that everyone is alowwed to be in love so if that means you love a guy or girl It doesnt matter really i dont care

Posted by: Adam Vengeance Jun 29 2009, 06:03 PM

Well first of all, I'm not a "RACIST/BIASED PIG," and I'm not, "Poisoning peoples minds." I, for one, believe in gay "Union" I am also atheist, but in the bible it clearly states that a "Marriage" is a holy bond between Man and Woman, it doesn't have to be religious, but it clearly has to be between a man and a woman, holy doesn't exactly mean "GOD" it can also mean "SACRED" which is what i meant. Yes, I know Gays are human, and so are Blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, etc. but that doesn't even relate to my post, i didn't say that during the Civil War, blacks COULD get married, I was talking about "Gay Marriage" Finally, I did "CHOSE" to be straight, no one is born with sexual preference, it is an opinion, anyone who is gay was not born gay they did, in fact "CHOOSE" to be gay. I was only stating my opinion you had no right to call me Racist, Biased, Inhuman... I'm not FRED PHELPS, for crying out loud. BTW you should probably watch your language, I know of at least one kid who visits this site, and you can state your opinion without so much cursing!!! AND BEING ATHEIST DOESN'T GIVE YOU A RIGHT TO DISRESPECT OTHERS RELIGIONS, YOU SAY THAT GAYS SHOULD BE TREATED AS HUMAN BEINGS, I ALSO BELIEVE THAT RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE TO!

Posted by: Annakyoyama358 Jun 29 2009, 06:14 PM

an aethest bible thumper?
Did you not pay attention in American history when they taught about SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.
The bible is NOT THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION.
The BIBLE says man/woman. THERE'S NOTHING ABOUT GENDER IN THE LAWS. They're GENDER NEUTRAL. That's why all you right-wing fascists have to keep pushing BILLS IN CONGRESS about changing the law to be gender specific, barring gays from marrying.
The bible also says you should do all kinda of horrible things to heretics. But you don't, because you'd end up on trial for abuse, harrassment, or murder. Not to mention hate crimes.

Holy/sacred both refer to RELIGIOUS things kid.

The Christian church can say no to gay marriage. BUT THEY CAN'T SAY NO TO LEGAL MARRAIGE.
I think you skipped abouthhalf my post there.

And you are biased if you think that gays shouldn't be married. You are poisoning peoples minds by quoting the BIBLE and not the LAW when it is the LAW that matters.

Frankly, if you're too stupid to realize that what black people went through then to get equal marriage rights is the same thing gay people are going through now, you're not smart enough to be in this forum.

If they CHOSE to be gay then why are so many gays WISHING they were straight so thay wouldn't feel ostracized? There are gays being EXORCISED because of 'gay demons'. YOU THINK THEY WISHED THAT ON THEMSELVES?

Posted by: ZeroVX Jun 29 2009, 06:18 PM

OK, so you're atheist, but you believe in what the Bible says about marriage? How does that make sense?

And yes, religious people are people too, but the church doesn't write the laws. So, it really doesn't matter what they say about this. And even if they did have some say in the laws, what about other religions? Don't they get a say in it?

Also, ALL CAPS MEANS SHOUTING WHICH MEANS YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO ME.

Posted by: Adam Vengeance Jun 29 2009, 06:28 PM

Fine......

You can believe whatever you want. Just tone down the language please

btw, i stated earlier that i support gays!

Have a nice day

Posted by: Annakyoyama358 Jun 29 2009, 06:31 PM

It's not supporting gays if you're saying that they only deserve a fake marriage that's called a union.
SUPPORTING gay marriage is supporting gay MARRIAGE.

the fact that you didn't even TRY to rebuke my points shows how weak your own arguments were.

Posted by: Adam Vengeance Jun 30 2009, 08:23 AM

A Civil Union has all of the same legal benefits of a marriage

...Two of my biggest idols are gay (Harvey Milk and Palmer Scott) so you can't tell me that I don't support gays, also one of my best friends sister is gay, if you want to meet someone who doesn't support gays, meet my dad!!!!

Everyday I wear a Gay Pride Bracelet to school, and my dad has thrown away at least 12 of them by now.

The reason that I didn't try to rubuke your points is that no matter what i said, you would yell profanity, and call me racist, biased, whatever. I really don't want to argue with someone who is just going to curse at me

If you read the rules you could get in trouble for cursing in the debate forum, so you should (and I think you have considering your last post has not profanity) stop, for your own good!

Im sorry that you don't think a Civil Union is a real marriage

...so i say again... HAVE A GOOD DAY ...AND BY NOW YES I AM YELLING!!!

Posted by: ZeroVX Jun 30 2009, 08:43 AM

You really aren't understanding the point.

The Bible doesn't make the laws. The church doesn't make the laws. They didn't invent marriage, despite what some believe. So, really, what they have to say about this should have no effect on the subject.

So let's just toss out the church's opinion on this. Let's pretend the church doesn't exist. So why can't two gay people get married, and not be forced to have a "civil union"?

Posted by: Zoreta Jun 30 2009, 03:47 PM

But civil unions don't have the same rights as marriage. Married people get tax benefits, their spouse is the default recipient if they die without a will, and there is power of attorney rights that spouses get by default.

'Civil unions' don't get any of these, and these are the tip of the iceberg. Technically, a hetero couple can get a civil union, but they also have the option of marriage, and gay couples don't.

As for this business about marriage being a 'holy union' because the bible says so... You do know that marriage predates the bible? In Greece it was considered as valid and normal as hetero marriage. In fact, in the military, homosexual actions were encouraged. Greece isn't the only civilization that supported it, before the bible came to be. If we're going to choose a definition of marriage, why use the bible's definition?

Technically, legally, you can't use the bible's definition because that would be promoting one faith above others, which goes against the constitution.

Also: No, you do not choose to be gay- it is a natural phenomena. There are differences in the brain of gay men and women to their straight counterparts, and their reaction to things is markedly difference on a biological level. When it comes to pheromones (chemical messages we release into the air or our bodily fluids to tell other people about our health), gay men respond more like straight women than straight men.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/10/science/10smell.html?_r=1&incamp=article_popular

There are also factors within the mother's womb that can affect the frequency of gay men- if it were a choice, such a correlation would not exist. Sexual orientation is something that starts to form even before birth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5120004.stm

Posted by: Annakyoyama358 Jun 30 2009, 04:05 PM

*claps for Zoreta's post*
Well said, and good evidence, Zoerta.
I'd like to add that in addition to greeks, romans, helensitic cultures, the ottoman empire, the mongols, and many different types of monks also practiced homosexual acts in an atmosophere where such things were encouraged.
In Buddist temples, young monks were very popular, taught and often sexually involved by older monks.
Even in some Christian abbeys , Monks made exceptions to their vow of chastity for other men, deciding that they vow of chastity applied to female flesh only.

Posted by: Iulius Caesar Jul 6 2009, 04:30 PM

Atheists who use religion and the Bible in an argument should not be listened to. You're going against your own personal credo when you throw in something you don't believe in.



marry me kthx

Posted by: Troll Jul 6 2009, 04:42 PM

Why not just remove marriage entirely and call them civil unions all around? Giving them the same stuff as what we used to call "married" obviously.

Posted by: Zoreta Jul 6 2009, 04:55 PM

Why, Iulius Caesar, I'm flattered!

I think this sums up my point pretty well:

http://i40.tinypic.com/2up6c08.jpg

Troll, it would be great if that could happen, but then people will bark about how it is taking rights from the straight couples (we had the right to marry, now we don't!)

People will be more receptive to giving rights to others rather than losing their own rights, so giving everyone the option of marriage would probably be smoother than saying that nobody has the option.

Posted by: AdamNW Jul 6 2009, 09:28 PM

Because now marriage doesn't exist, and they would have to be Civil Unions.

I don't believe in any marriage of any sort, honestly.

Posted by: Troll Jul 7 2009, 12:08 AM

No no no, legally it'll be called a "civil union" but if they [the couple] want to call it marriage, they can go ahead and do that.

Posted by: Zoreta Jul 7 2009, 12:44 AM

Yeah, but at that point it would be a semantics battle. At this point in time hetero couples can have a marriage or a civil union, so even if there is no legal difference between the two, it would be 'taking away' the ability of a hetero couple to have a marriage union.

I wish people could be logical enough to figure out that nothing would change for them, but the truth of the matter is that they would, technically, lose out an option even though an equal option would be there. It makes people feel boxed in or endangered and wouldn't go over as smoothly. Ridiculous, but people attach connotations to certain words and will be hellbent on keeping the words from losing 'ground.'

Posted by: Iulius Caesar Jul 7 2009, 09:12 AM

That's the point. People bitch on about how a civil union "CAN'T CALL IT MARRIAGE BECAUSE IT WASN'T BLESSED BY GOD HURRRRR" but yet there's plenty of hetero couples that didn't get married "the Christian way".

People are still going to call it a marriage no matter what anyone says. The argument of semantics is a load of bullshit that really shouldn't be followed. If the Christian community and any other homophobes want to complain about how the "union" was not blessed and thus not called a "marriage" then fine, but you're arguing a petty point. Even before Matrimony was a sacrament, people were still "married". They called each other "married". They were considered "married". The marriage ceremony itself really does nothing legally for the couple. It's just an excuse to spend a ton of money and look pretty. Which I'm fine with. But the civil union is what people are trying to make illegal, which is dumb.

Posted by: Zoreta Jul 7 2009, 12:00 PM

I think what Troll means is that everyone- hetero and homo alike- would get civil unions, and the word 'marriage' would completely leave the legal system. If the church wants to continue to use 'marriage' as a phrase they are free to, but in the legal system 'marriage' would not exist.
It is great in theory, but in practice, people want to call it a marriage and they will fight for the right to call it a marriage. Psychologically people are more receptive to giving others rights to level the playing field, rather than giving up their own (the right to get a marriage union in this case)

Looking toward the future, it would probably be better to give the same options to everyone anyway, as making the terms exclusive would allow for future tampering of one group without affecting the other. It would make unbalancing the system a lot easier if a corrupt politician tried to turn back the clock in future years.

Posted by: Annakyoyama358 Jul 7 2009, 03:20 PM

In love with that image Zoreta.
I think changing the legal terms from marriage to civil union isn't a bad idea, really. As long as the rights AND the terms are the same, people can call it what they want.

Posted by: Zoreta Jul 7 2009, 03:49 PM

Believe me, I would prefer it to be civil union for everyone- it would cut the church completely out of the equation. However, that's also exactly why people won't vote for it- it'll completely cut the church out of the equation.

Posted by: Troll Jul 7 2009, 03:50 PM

Then they just need to understand that they can call it marriage if they want.

The only other solutions I can think of involve separating gay marriage from regular marriage.
Though in my opinion, gay marriage should exist, but churches and priests and whoever should have the right to deny who they wish to marry.


http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=2204636989 <- its title expresses how I feel about it really.


Sucks how little they realize that they're living in a religiously apathetic nation. I, as an atheist, do not want to grow up in a nation where Christianity takes total precedence over everything. |:

Posted by: Iulius Caesar Jul 8 2009, 08:45 AM

Sadly I can't relate to you, because I grew up in a Catholic-dominated world where everything must relate to God and Jesus somehow and has to be what the Church says is "right".

Most people actually won't vote for the legalization of all civil union for everyone because then some people will begin to question "where's the line drawn at?" and there will be those few who cross said line. People will begin to fight for the right to join in civil union with, say, a tree in their backyard, or a cat. Or their family members. Of course, there's science and social law to prove those things wrong. People can only reproduce with people, the taboo placed on bestiality makes the union with a cat immoral (and not just Christianity--most religions condemn it after all, and even the unreligious). And, as science has proved, most incestuous relationships produce (if the child even LIVES) extreme mental defects. And incest is also taboo.

I'm not saying that it's going to absolutely come to that, but, in theory, people have always tried to cross the line. But it's always possible for the line to be crossed. If civil union was to be legalized for all couples, the government would have to draw a massive line to show society that it's possible for humans to have civil union.

in theory, i can never touch the wall

Posted by: Zoreta Jul 8 2009, 11:35 AM

I grew up Catholic, but left the church because I got sick and tired of pretending to agree with and support ideas I was totally against.

People will try and pull the BS slippery slope argument, but there is also the issue of people who, even though they won't say it, want the church's law to be the nation's law. Cutting out what they see as a holy union (marriage) would be seen to them as a very aggressive attempt on their ideals, and they'll dig in their heels. It would strike deeper than giving same sex marriage because it would be complete removal of their tradition, rather than an alteration. Alteration would probably be more widely accepted. If a time comes where the majority can consciously separate their religious laws and their legislative laws, then universal civil unionhood could occur.

Posted by: Annakyoyama358 Jul 8 2009, 02:14 PM

Slippery Slope has never actually been proven in regards to law. When have you seen a law that caused the kind of slippery slope that people were yellin about?
There's still plenty of babies born every year even though abortions are legal, right?

Posted by: The Enigmatic Trainer Jul 8 2009, 03:36 PM

i think gay marriage is fine. sure the thought of two guys doing sexual stuff to eachother makes me wanna throw-up in my mouth, but no ones making me watch gay guys do stuff together so thats fine with me. some people try to say that gays are the reason aids was spawned but thats not 100% proven. besides, the theory that aids came from fornicationg with monkeys seems more likely to me. the point is as long as it doesnt affect me in a negative way, then im good. if it did affect me negativley then id be against it. in fact, gays might be a good thing for a little population control which we desperately need.