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Evolution or God?, Something every Forum should have...
Hisashi Shoutai
post Jun 17 2008, 09:17 AM
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of course evolution exists...
I believe in it but I dont think thats how we were created...

A while back we had 4 extra teeth, used to crush food...
Nowadays, some people are born without them, and those that have them take them out...
for they arent necessary anymore... =x
and also... I really dont think that we just came to be because of an explosion...
THe Human Mind is an incredilble machine and not in a million years will some1 invet something more advanced then the human brain.
Could such a machinery be created through simply an explosion, then evolution of cells?
I dont think so...

not to mention I find it Highly unlikely that we were once tadpoles...

pinch.gif

and I wont change the name of the thread for it says exactly what I meant to say... =x
Unless some mod changes it... xD

This post has been edited by Shoutai: Jun 17 2008, 09:19 AM


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Etnie
post Jun 18 2008, 09:28 PM
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I'm agnostic and my entire family is Baptist/protestant. so I'm the oddball in my family but they don't know i'm agnostic.
Evolution happens- yes. Evolution is how we came to be- I don't think so in my opinion. I think that we were created some how.
But when I try to accept "we evolved from lesser forms" It just doesn't feel right, you know.


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Akane
post Jun 20 2008, 01:14 PM
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QUOTE(Shoutai @ Jun 17 2008, 10:17 AM) *
of course evolution exists...
I believe in it but I dont think thats how we were created...

A while back we had 4 extra teeth, used to crush food...
Nowadays, some people are born without them, and those that have them take them out...
for they arent necessary anymore... =x
and also... I really dont think that we just came to be because of an explosion...
THe Human Mind is an incredilble machine and not in a million years will some1 invet something more advanced then the human brain.
Could such a machinery be created through simply an explosion, then evolution of cells?
I dont think so...

not to mention I find it Highly unlikely that we were once tadpoles...

pinch.gif

and I wont change the name of the thread for it says exactly what I meant to say... =x
Unless some mod changes it... xD


I agree, the human brain is waaayyy more advanced than any other machine on Earth. It's basically an organic machine.

QUOTE(Evolution of the brain)
Although a bacterium seems like a simple kind of life to us, it is a quite complex chemical factory, whose existence depends on the simultaneous manufacture of several thousand different kinds of chemicals. Bacteria are far more advanced than those simple creatures that first wriggled across the threshold of life on the earth
If bacteria already existed when the earth was one billion years old, a long period of evolution must have preceded their appearance, in which the chemical machinery that makes up the business of life for a bacterium was slowly being worked out and improved.

This implies that the threshold of life itself must have been crossed far earlier - perhaps when the earth was only a few hundred million years old, or even younger. A few hundred million years is not a long time for such an important experiment; if the experiment succeeded as quickly as that, the probability of its success must have been fairly high.


The website has more info: http://www.primatesociety.com/Into/surviva...e/textEvol.html

I still don't see why you just think of it as an explosion and then the seemingly quick evolution of cells... it's a lot more complex than that, and it took millions of years to evolve and become what it is now. I keep repeating myself. sealed.gif


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Jeffrey
post Aug 16 2008, 08:53 AM
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The real question here is this: why, throughout man's history, have we never bene able to compromise between these two poles? People discuss this subject as though Creationism and Evolution are both means to the same end, all the while neglecting to notice that both theories can exist in relative harmony with eachother, side by side.

Divine intelligence creates life. Life evolves. Is this not the simplest notion you've ever heard? I can't comprehend why so many people are hell-bent on choosing one extreme over the other.

Now, I'm not saying this is the way life flourished on Earth, or even that this is what I believe in. What I am saying is that in every debate there is always room for adjustment of these extremes.


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Shady
post Aug 18 2008, 09:08 PM
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This is a topic that I find very fascinating. Personally, I believe in Evolution, however, I don't claim that there is no god. We don't know how God would choose to do his work. Perhaps he, by design, allows organisms to adapt to their environments to better serve themselves.

And Jeffrey brings up a good point. Looking through this topic, I have seen a lot of people that believe in the "compromise" between Evolution and Creationism. The relatively unimportant people can agree, while those whose opinion is far more likely to make a difference in the big scheme of things refuse to listen to the other side. I think this would be because The theory of Evolution is the "scientific" view, which is "what can be theorized, discovered, and backed up with evidence", while the Creationist theory relies purely on faith.


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Camerin
post Aug 18 2008, 09:13 PM
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evolution and God
God directed our evolution specificly, and gave us a BIG brain.

This post has been edited by Camerin: Aug 18 2008, 09:14 PM


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Missy Artichoke
post Aug 18 2008, 11:06 PM
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To me, God is actually more believable than evolution. After all it IS a theory, meaning it hasn't been 100% proven. In fact, Darwin himself points out the theory's "downfalls" in his Origin of Species somewhere.

What triggers evolution? And why only certain species evolve? Take the giraffe, for example. How come it was the only animal who thought of stretching out its neck to eat from the taller trees? As somebody pointed out, the 'missing link' hasn't been discovered. No one has ever found an intermediate species (A half-necked giraffe, if you may). Of course, the findings of fossils cannot be denied, they are there for the world to see. But how exactly do we know they are linked to humans? Monkeys today still kinda look like us, yet they're a different species.

Evolution theory claims that somewhere in time, some billions of years ago, particles of Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen and Nitrogen decided to come together and create life. (At least, is what I understand). If this is true, how come with all the technology we have we are not able to recreate this? What makes those particles create life and who is behind it? Certainly not us, that's for sure. If we were, scientists would be creating life by merely putting these four elements together. Is life random, then? Or is there a purpose? Did you know that it has been astronomically proven that our position in the universe allows us to actually explore and 'look out' into space? Were we on a slightly different spot, the orbit would be changed dramatically. And we'd probably be too close or too far from the Sun to sustain life.

Any respectable scientist will agree that there is intelligent design behind nature. This requires a Creator, a Mastermind behind it all. Evolution is too random. I believe in a Creator God with a specific plan and purpose for His Creation.

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Shady
post Aug 19 2008, 05:48 AM
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A theory is a tested model of the interaction of natural phenomena. It can help to predict future occurances and other observations that can be tested through experiment. The label of "Theory" is relatively hard to obtain, and a being "only a theory" doesn't reduce Evolution's credibility.

When animals evolve (assuming they evolve), they don't do so in response to the environment. It is a random genetic mutation, and, if it fits the environment better, the animal that mutated will have an easier time surviving, and pass down its genes containing the mutation. Its children will then have the gene, and will have the same advantage, and they pass down the gene etc. The reason the Giraffe is the only animal that evolved to have a longer neck is because that helps the Giraffe survive. All other animals have other means of obtaining food, they don't need a longer neck.

I am a little bit fuzzy on the creation of Earth and the beginning of life, but I will try to contribute as intelligently and constructively as possible. When Life first appeared, conditions where far different from what they are now. We don't know exactly what they where like, either (at least, I don't think we do). Even so, creating new life (other than through reproduction) seems an extremely daunting task. We can do some amazing things, but I don't believe that we are anywhere close to being able to throw four compounds together and create bacteria or whatever with them.

I never really knew about the astronomy you discussed in your post, thats really cool. I want to look into this further now...

Anyways, I disagree about your comment on respectable scientists believing in a god. Gods aren't something that can really be scientifically proven (or knocked down), so I wouldn't say that they are a staple in scientific beliefs. However, that doesn't mean that any respectable scientist won't believe in god.

A common argument is brought up about evolution on the eye and its randomness. A lot of creationists take the eye, and say that it needs the Retina, the Lens, the Pupil, the Iris, and all the other intricate parts of the eye to work. Furthermore, any part of the eye would be useless without the other parts, and so many mutations would have to occur at the same time, and the chances of that mutation producing an Eye are extremely low. However, there is a species of clam that has small light receptors, which are essentially a few (modified) parts of a common eye thrown together. However, I like to think of this as "the eye is just what we got stuck with". We really don't have any way of knowing what COULD have been in place of the eye, should have the mutation occurred a different way.


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Missy Artichoke
post Aug 19 2008, 12:23 PM
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But still, nobody really knows what is the trigger for evolution and said mutations cannot be proven by testing. It is only assuming they took place that we guess who came before who and such. Of course, it's no longer a Hypothesis, either.

Also, the Giraffe would do just fine without its long neck, as it can survive on leaves and twigs. True, it has an advantage by having its long neck, as different food is available to it, but still it doesn't answer the question of why the Giraffe is the only ruminant with a long neck.

The astronomy bit I found on a website a while ago. I believe it was called something like "God in science" or something similar. Of course, if you'd like you could ignore the Creationism in it and just marvel at the wonders of nature.

As for my comment about respectable scientists, I believe I phrased it wrong. My point was that any respectable scientist would agree that there is intelligent design behind nature, a reason for things to be exactly what they are (like our position in the Milky Way and such). Whether they call this God or Nature is a different matter. Sorry it got misunderstood.

I didn't know that about the eye, that's very neat. I think that's probably the main reason why I don't believe in Evolution, it being so random, that is. When you look at nature, it's not random. A ladybug can accurately predict how bad the first snowfall will be. Gravity is not random. In fact, it is so stable that scientists today base all their theories about the creation of the universe (or its eternal presence) assuming this Law, along with many others, were in motion then as they are now.

So, to sum up my point: I don't believe in Evolution because it's random XD.gif
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TQQ
post Aug 19 2008, 12:34 PM
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i am going to say, i don't believe in god.
the only proof of his being is a book that has been altered 50 times and churces.
evolution is the only possible idea,
and sorry to tell you missy, if evolution is so random, how do you explain monkeies, dna, or homo erectus*giggle*

@ shoutai: we didnt start out as tadpoles, persay. we were bro from a "primadoria soup" of sorts, containing nutrient rich, life giving water. our entire body is made out of cells, which thrive off nutrients. what better place for cells to start reproducing than in a pool of water COMPOSED of the nutrients it needs?


the idea of god is just stupid. and here is my argument for why i say so, before i have a billion people up my ass about it.
where do people get the idea that some man/girl/whatever decides, you know what? i think i am gonna make people today. *poof, snap of the fingers* adam says, "hey man, i need to get laid!" god: "well, lay back, smoke some pot, im gonna take a rib out."


HOW THE FUCK IS A RIB TURNED INTO BONING MATERIAL?


IMO, god doesn't exist.
there is my explaination.


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Dazmi
post Aug 19 2008, 12:39 PM
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If you're talking pokemon, it's just a more powerful form.

In real life, I think If you combine features of two people long enough, there might be some change sooner or later.


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Missy Artichoke
post Aug 19 2008, 01:19 PM
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If the Bible is just a book, it has the same credibility as any other book. What gives more credibility to a science book than the Bible? If they were both, technically, written by men, they should have the same base credibility stat, so to speak.

Furthermore, the Bible itself hasn't been changed, per se. Different versions/translations have spawned, some of which are not accurate or have been edited. A perfect example is the Catholic Bible, in which the word Trinity is added to a verse (because it is nowhere found in the original). If you actually took the time to read it, you'd find that many churches are in the wrong. A good example is the concept of heaven and hell, which the Bible disproves and it actually enforces the doctrine of a resurrection when Jesus Christ returns.

As for Eve coming from Adam's rib, it's a matter of personal beliefs. Remember, though, 100 years ago nobody could even imagine the destructive power of an atomic bomb, yet here it is today threatening all life on the planet. I suppose it takes a little faith, if you want to call it something.

To go back to topic, DNA is a perfect example of design behind nature. Evolution claims that genetic mutations (or changes in DNA structure) are random. They happen at some point, apparently triggered by the environment to increase a certain species' rate of survival. Then, if Evolution were true, why are monkeys still here? Wouldn't we be the pinnacle of their evolutionary chain? If we are the evolved versions of them, we are the survivors.

I do not mean to offend anyone, by the way.
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Emp
post Aug 19 2008, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE(Missy Artichoke @ Aug 19 2008, 07:19 PM) *
If the Bible is just a book, it has the same credibility as any other book. What gives more credibility to a science book than the Bible? If they were both, technically, written by men, they should have the same base credibility stat, so to speak.

The Bible is older and more known about silly.

The bible was probibly a lot more powerful and influencial in those times. If it was released today, I think people would find it rediculous, sexist, racist and stupid. Just like if they came out with Cigarettes today, people would just think they are stupid and they would never be sold because of the health risks.

However, when something becomes so popular, it isn't easy to get rid of. Especialy when so many Christians use it as a source of faith. I don't have the best opinion on this but I know what I know.

QUOTE(Missy Artichoke @ Aug 19 2008, 07:19 PM) *
Then, if Evolution were true, why are monkeys still here? Wouldn't we be the pinnacle of their evolutionary chain? If we are the evolved versions of them, we are the survivors.

This is just stupid. Read up on how evolution works. I thought you where for evolution and against the Bible.
Whos side are you on?

This post has been edited by empoleon dynamite: Aug 19 2008, 01:52 PM


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Pumpkin King
post Aug 19 2008, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE(Missy Artichoke @ Aug 19 2008, 12:06 AM) *
What triggers evolution? And why only certain species evolve? Take the giraffe, for example. How come it was the only animal who thought of stretching out its neck to eat from the taller trees?


I'm sorry but that last statement is just very stupid. Evolution does not work that way. Please, if you're going to be part of the debate, educate yourself about evolution first.

I'm super sorry if this seems offensive. I just couldn't think of another way to say it.


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Hisashi Shoutai
post Aug 19 2008, 03:50 PM
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hmm.. Im not going into this topic too much right now cu ]z I dont have a lot of time... but To all of you, dont think everyone here reads the bible...
I dont and I am against evolution... the theory...

bah... Ill post more detailed thing later.. =x


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Missy Artichoke
post Aug 19 2008, 04:09 PM
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I'm for Creationism, God and the Bible. Against Evolution.

Humans are listed in the same biological family as gorillas and chimps, which leads me to believe that if we are the better species in that family, the gorillas shouldn't survive. They didn't evolve big brains like we did, or whatever.

QUOTE(Pumpkin King @ Aug 19 2008, 01:57 PM) *
I'm sorry but that last statement is just very stupid. Evolution does not work that way. Please, if you're going to be part of the debate, educate yourself about evolution first.

I'm super sorry if this seems offensive. I just couldn't think of another way to say it.


I don't take offense, but I would like to point out that people that have posted their views against Creationism are not educated in it either. There just happens to be more of them.

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Pumpkin King
post Aug 19 2008, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE(Missy Artichoke @ Aug 19 2008, 05:09 PM) *
Humans are listed in the same biological family as gorillas and chimps, which leads me to believe that if we are the better species in that family, the gorillas shouldn't survive. They didn't evolve big brains like we did, or whatever.

I don't take offense, but I would like to point out that people that have posted their views against Creationism are not educated in it either. There just happens to be more of them.


Yes, humans are considered the better species in the family but that doesn't mean gorillas shouldn't exist. Gorillas adapted in ways that they needed to survive their habitats and so did we.

If there were any uneducated posts about Anti-Creationalism, I probably didn't notice them and I don't have the attention span to go and look. I happened to see yours and felt the urge to point it out. I'm glad you weren't offended.

btw, I believe in evolution, but I still believe in God.


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Missy Artichoke
post Aug 19 2008, 04:35 PM
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The reason, I think, why I can't put the both of them together in harmony (Evolution and Creationism, that is), is because I have proven to myself through independent study that the Bible is God's word. Since the Bible depicts a Creation that cannot be conceived in evolution, I have to stand on the Creationism side.

It is probably very silly for all of you, to think that I believe everything that is written in there. But then again, it is silly for me to think that primates and bats came from the same 'ancient' species. Or that beavers and whales are actually related.

It is all a matter of beliefs and opinions.
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TQQ
post Aug 19 2008, 06:24 PM
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>_>
you are ignorant to the facts i front of you. there is major pieces of evidence that point towards evolution, like monkies have 98% of shared dna with humans, among other things. were is the proof that the bible is telling the truth? creationism is about IDEAS that people had back then, evolution is about FACTS that are happening.
let me ask you one thing, missy.
how did the person who wrote the bible know that it took god 7 days to make the earth? how did he know that the snake told adam and eve to take the apple from the tree of eden?
you can't think that all people that are for evolution are stupid. i have read the bible, ON SEVERAL occasions,
but no matter how many times i read it, i still call it the biggest bullshit book i have ever read. OYU are the ignorant one, refusing to look at how evolution is the right answer to life, because you know that if you gave up your faith in your so-called "god", that you wouldnt have anyone else to blame the events that go on in the world but society itself.
now, go educate your self in all the subjects you feel like arguing about,before you go and make one-sided accusations such as that.


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Hisashi Shoutai
post Aug 19 2008, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE(the quiet quilava @ Aug 19 2008, 06:24 PM) *
>_>
you are ignorant to the facts i front of you. there is major pieces of evidence that point towards evolution, like monkies have 98% of shared dna with humans, among other things. were is the proof that the bible is telling the truth? creationism is about IDEAS that people had back then, evolution is about FACTS that are happening.
let me ask you one thing, missy.
how did the person who wrote the bible know that it took god 7 days to make the earth? how did he know that the snake told adam and eve to take the apple from the tree of eden?
you can't think that all people that are for evolution are stupid. i have read the bible, ON SEVERAL occasions,
but no matter how many times i read it, i still call it the biggest bullshit book i have ever read. OYU are the ignorant one, refusing to look at how evolution is the right answer to life, because you know that if you gave up your faith in your so-called "god", that you wouldnt have anyone else to blame the events that go on in the world but society itself.
now, go educate your self in all the subjects you feel like arguing about,before you go and make one-sided accusations such as that.

easy cowboy!

Like I said, I dont read the bible and I dont believe in the Evolution Theory!

I believe 70% of the bible is correct due to certain passages in it.. the other 30% is bullshit!
Now, science has proven things... of course it has... But when that "proof" gets in the way of my faith, I simpy draw the line!
Don't believe in everything science says just cuz they say it...
Don't believe everything the Bible says just cuz it says for you to do so...

bah... Read a few pages back and you will see a bigger version of my argument.. >.>


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