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Atheists
proxSam
post Nov 19 2010, 03:20 AM
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I think the idea of leaving out the other major religions while only focusing on one is ignorant. There are many viewpoints on God and religion I feel people should consider before forming educated and "non-ignorant" opinions.


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FancyGranola
post Nov 19 2010, 04:01 AM
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QUOTE(Vincent Lance @ Nov 18 2010, 08:43 PM) *
Atheists don't exist. The definition of the word 'atheist' is 'someone who believes there is no 'god' or spiritual world. This, by definition, means one of two things: either, you're not atheist, and are actually agnostic, because you aren't SURE if there's a 'god', OR, you are sure there is no 'god,' and you become as ignorant as you say Christians are.


That's what I basically wrote in the beginning.

God or not. Atheists don't believe in a god. Funny thing. The more you try to reject the existence of a god, the more you feel like you acknowledge there is one. At least that's how it feels usually when people are brought up in a religious environment.


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Reyo
post Nov 19 2010, 11:50 AM
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QUOTE(Ruby Spritz @ Nov 19 2010, 04:20 AM) *
I think the idea of leaving out the other major religions while only focusing on one is ignorant. There are many viewpoints on God and religion I feel people should consider before forming educated and "non-ignorant" opinions.


He was trying to prove a point with an example, which happened to be "atheists vs Christians". Not anything inherently ignorant in that at all. It'd be like saying "Dogs chase cats" and someone else saying "That's ignorant, there are other animals that chase other animals." Yes...there are, but the "who vs. who" aspect of the example used isn't the focus of the conversation, or at least it's not meant to be.

This post has been edited by Reyo: Nov 19 2010, 11:51 AM


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post Nov 19 2010, 01:58 PM
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I'm an atheist, got my own reasons for being one. I'd like to consider myself a pretty reasonable and good natured person, I donate more money to charity then I honestly should, and I have absolutely no forbearing hatred towards anyone based solely on their belief in a particular slice if a particular faith.

In terms of faith/religion in general, unless directly asked or provoked, thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.


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post Nov 19 2010, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE(Numbuh 893 @ Nov 19 2010, 04:34 AM) *
Are atheists evil?

Yes, but no more than anyone in any other religion.

Are atheists good?

Yes, but no more than anyone in any other religion.

Oh em gee! Its numbuh *offtopicnesscompleted*

Atheists aren't evil. Why would they? People aren't evil because of their religion. Infact evil is a bit of an overstatement. These people have feelings you know! Be nice (:
Im atheist, well not really. I believe in something. I believe in an afterlife, just not 'heaven'. There is really no true Atheist, or maybe only 01.012% (go me for made up numbers!) of the claimed 'atheists' are actually completely atheist.

ATHEISTS ROCK. End.


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post Nov 20 2010, 01:43 AM
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I disagree.
Everyone is evil inside, it doesn't matter what your religious status is.


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post Nov 20 2010, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 20 2010, 01:43 AM) *
Everyone is evil inside

It's impossible to know this unless one knows the thoughts and feelings of every single person.

The same applies to almost every "everyone is x ".



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Ivysaur
post Nov 21 2010, 02:32 AM
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Atheist here.

"Atheism isn't real"? Really?

I don't know about other atheists, but I reject the existence of a Deity simply because I don't feel anything when it comes to relating to religion. My mother is agnostic; my father is Jewish. I've been to Church a few times... nothing. I've tried praying... nothing. I'm a big believer in cold, hard facts. I've seen no liable proof firmly planting the possibility of there being a higher being. Key word being firmly.

Think about this:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then He is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
-Epicurus

God is in Himself a paradox; omnipotent means "all-powerful", but He cannot Himself create a wall that He cannot tear down or jump over.

And besides, Greek mythology has been cast aside as simply false and impossible, and yet modern religions haven't? To me that's kind of stupid, because they both make equally as much sense; Greek mythology made sense in Ancient Greece, modern religion makes sense now (to a lot of people, at least; not the entire human race). Who's to say that religions such as Christianity and all the religions that sprouted from it will not be cast aside in the future, like Greek mythology was?

It's late here. This post probably won't make much sense so I'll try to fix it up and add some more in the morning.


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Draikette
post Nov 21 2010, 02:51 AM
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It's not what you do or do not believe in that makes one good or bad.
If you partake in any religion, it is NOT an "obligation" to be "good."
Same goes for atheism. It's not an obligation to be evil.
Evil is as evil does.
Good is as good does.
You don't need to be Christian/Buddhist/Jew/etc in order to seek out and do good deeds.
It's all in the power of CHOICE. Not fate. Not acquirement of birth.
It's not piety. It's not "saving" others by converting them.
It's having the patience and understanding of the people around you.

This post has been edited by Draikette: Nov 21 2010, 02:52 AM


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post Nov 21 2010, 05:34 AM
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QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 21 2010, 02:26 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 20 2010, 01:43 AM) *
Everyone is evil inside

It's impossible to know this unless one knows the thoughts and feelings of every single person.

The same applies to almost every "everyone is x ".

Can you prove that everyone is truly good?


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post Nov 21 2010, 09:41 AM
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QUOTE(BarkAtTheMoon @ Nov 17 2010, 07:13 PM) *
QUOTE(Yumie @ Nov 17 2010, 05:33 PM) *
However, walking around my school, I have never met anyone who held such extreme views, which includes all of those beliefs I listed before. They are all pretty loving individuals, despite how there are probably hundreds of different interpretations of beliefs in the building.


Be grateful for that and never move to Americas bible belt -_-2.gif I live in that region and trust me, thats where all the nuts are located. If anyone was to even MENTION evolution everyone would start to freak out. I one time heard someone say you need to be atheist to be a scientist which should demonstrate how crazy these people are that they cannot put aside their religious beliefs to even take the time to learn about science.

I wonder how many times I've contradicted myself in this thread dumblook.gif


Lol, I lve in the USA, but im guessing that thats not what you mean by Americas. But yeah, I was lucky enough to not be exposed to that kind of intolerance yet. Narrow- mindedness is easy to take on, but at least they think they are doing the right thing. And, if any of those individuals you were thinking of ever move outside the bible belt, they may get a nice taste of reality and meet some pleasant people of other beliefs. *attempted positive spin*

QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 21 2010, 06:34 AM) *
QUOTE(StrawberryLoveIntervention @ Nov 21 2010, 02:26 AM) *
QUOTE(CrowFeather @ Nov 20 2010, 01:43 AM) *
Everyone is evil inside

It's impossible to know this unless one knows the thoughts and feelings of every single person.

The same applies to almost every "everyone is x ".

Can you prove that everyone is truly good?


I dont think it is necessarily saying that everyone is necessarily good, just that not everyone is not necessarily evil. I don't think I'm evil, as I do make attempts to help others as well as the environment (which any religion/belief could do). Though, I am not completely good, as I have done selfish things and have a bad habit for hogging large amounts of candy. But, hogging candy isn't exactly evil. It's not like I'm thinking "Oh! Now those kids in Africa won't be happy, as I have all of their candy!" Other people do good things as well: its not like they have this flawless facade they are able to put on and trick anyone.


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DJ Majja Kool
post Nov 21 2010, 10:42 AM
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What Yumie said. Not everyone is good, but not everyone is evil. Also, not everyone is either.

Everyone has a bad personality trait or two, but that doesn't make someone evil.

This post has been edited by StrawberryLoveIntervention: Nov 21 2010, 10:44 AM


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Reyo
post Nov 21 2010, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE(Ivysaur @ Nov 21 2010, 03:32 AM) *
Think about this:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then He is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"


I don't like this little snippet either for the exact same reason. It assumes that God HAS to be this magical sky genie that has an obligation to make everyone's life perfect, or else he doesn't exist. What people forget, however, is that if an all knowing, all doing god exists, he doesn't need to ground himself to the human perception of him. I mean hell, most people don't even ground themselves to the perceptions of those who are higher than they are on the social totem poll.

He's God, why should he give a shit what you think of him? If he isn't good, then why should he exist? Because you don't dictate reality. He's probably a mixture of the 2nd and the 3rd one on your list, and I say both because he probably does stop a lot of evil from happening, but you don't notice it, yet evil still exists since he's probably wise enough to realize that some evil is necessary. For example, a death in the family brings the rest of the family closer together. A near death experience brings you closer to your humanity and allows o to live your life more.

Even the holocaust provided some good in that it allowed humanity as a whole to look at an instance of human nature at it's darkest hour. Hell, World War II as a whole provided benefit. I'm an example of that. My grandfather would have stopped with my Dad's older brother had he not fought in the war, came home, and had my Dad, who then had me. It's where the baby boomers came from.

Now, why did I write a near block of text on that? Because I want people you, as well as everyone else, to realize that this perception of God being this wish granting charity machine, or else he doesn't exist, is fucking ridiculous.

Also, someone isn't automatically malevolent just because they're able to help, but don't. I'm willing to bet all of us have embodied the type of person who can help, but doesn't, in at least one point of or lives. It's as simple as seeing a homeless person on the street asking for some money, yet not giving the poor bastard our last dollar. Does that automatically make you an evil person? And no, I'm not asking you to admit to not giving money to the homeless, because I know you'll just say some "I give money to EVERY homeless person I see" bullshit to try and ruin the example. Everyone, for some reason, feels obligated to say that. All I want you to do is think about it.

This post has been edited by Reyo: Nov 21 2010, 03:16 PM


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FancyGranola
post Nov 21 2010, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE(Reyo @ Nov 21 2010, 12:09 PM) *
Because I want people you, as well as everyone else, to realize that this perception of God being this wish granting charity machine, or else he doesn't exist, is fucking ridiculous.


Thank you.

God is there as this mediator. This "evil" and "good" are two sides of the same coin. Without evil, you do not know what is good. Without good, you do not know what is evil.

Our perception of God is false. We don't know God because he is almighty. We can't perceive him because he is so grand. If you think you know God, you don't. Don't compare yourself to an entity that knows all and sees all.

People, get out heads out the sand.


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post Nov 21 2010, 07:11 PM
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However, it does say in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16) that "All Scripture is inspired by the word of God (in other words, God breathed, or written by God-inspired men)." We can learn about God's nature by actually reading the book. Who knew.

What people don't seem to understand it that God created the world perfect. Humans, and animals, were created perfect, vegetarians by nature. Only after Satan, in the guise of a serpent, tempted Eve into eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did sin first become real. Before then, no one at meat, killed, or knew what was right and wrong; only what God wanted. It was literally perfect.

Sin exists because man ruined what God created perfect. As in, it's our fault that sin exists. God did not create it. After man sinned, they could no longer be in God's presence. They can't physically talk to, see, or hear God anymore. All we can do is pray, because God can hear us; we just can hear his reply, because we are sinful.

God sending his perfect son, born to a virgin, was the only way to create reconciliation. All you have to do is believe Jesus died to save you. It's a free gift.

And honestly? If that's a sure-fire way to avoid hell, if it exists, why wouldn't you accept that gift? Pascal's Wager. I'd rather be right about heaven than wrong about hell.

I'm just sayin'.


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post Nov 21 2010, 07:38 PM
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But how can we be so sure that that was the case back then? There was no paper to write it down on if they didn't kill, as trees are alive, and supposedly there was only Adam and Eve. How did it get passed on then? And if it did happen to, like all messages transmitted verbally, it would get altered by mishearings and other factors. For all we know, it could be a tale made up by someone. There's no actual proof as of yet that can decide if a deity exists or not, but there's a lot more proof going with atheists than against.

Also, if humans were supposed to be perfect, then wouldn't we have the knowledge and sense of wrong and right to avoid sins overall?


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post Nov 21 2010, 10:29 PM
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That's why I'm not Christian. I hate the reward system. It makes God look like a big time company that's always doing those buy one, get one free things. "Believe in me or burn for eternity!" Seriously? If that's how God is, I'd rather be an atheist. (Even though I'm pagan.xD) If the only way to get to heaven is believe in god, then he isn't a loving god. Because someone can be an atheist and a wonderful person. But because of the fact the fact that they don't believe in god, they'll go to hell? While someone can be a horrible, cruel, heartless person and go to heaven just because they believe in god? I wouldn't want a god like that.

(http://isavedmegaton.tumblr.com/post/1481229229/in-response-to-the-concept-that-morality-and-god) I thought that was relevant to what I was saying.

Also, I don't think the Bible is a reliable source at all. Mainly because it was written by men, no matter how you spin it. God never actually wrote the Bible. He never came down to earth to write the Bible. Even if he did, it's been translated so many times it's lost it's original perfect meaning. And since men are flawed and no man is perfect, you can't say the Bible is perfect, because it was written by men.
And I could bring up all of it's contradictions, but I need to go to bed, and I don't want to get the link at the moment.
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post Nov 21 2010, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE(PikaDiety @ Nov 21 2010, 11:29 PM) *
That's why I'm not Christian. I hate the reward system. It makes God look like a big time company that's always doing those buy one, get one free things. "Believe in me or burn for eternity!" Seriously? If that's how God is, I'd rather be an atheist. (Even though I'm pagan.xD) If the only way to get to heaven is believe in god, then he isn't a loving god. Because someone can be an atheist and a wonderful person. But because of the fact the fact that they don't believe in god, they'll go to hell? While someone can be a horrible, cruel, heartless person and go to heaven just because they believe in god? I wouldn't want a god like that.

(http://isavedmegaton.tumblr.com/post/1481229229/in-response-to-the-concept-that-morality-and-god) I thought that was relevant to what I was saying.

Also, I don't think the Bible is a reliable source at all. Mainly because it was written by men, no matter how you spin it. God never actually wrote the Bible. He never came down to earth to write the Bible. Even if he did, it's been translated so many times it's lost it's original perfect meaning. And since men are flawed and no man is perfect, you can't say the Bible is perfect, because it was written by men.
And I could bring up all of it's contradictions, but I need to go to bed, and I don't want to get the link at the moment.


QUOTE(Reyo @ Nov 21 2010, 04:09 PM) *
If he isn't good, then why should he exist? Because you don't dictate reality.


As much as it wold suck for that type of God to exist, if he does exist in that light, then he exists. You can't just say "Oh, he acts like that? I'll just act like he's not there." It's not like it'll make him go away just because you choose not to believe in him. That's just like a creationist plugging their fingers in their ears saying "LALA CAN'T HEAR YOU" when the topic of evolution pops up. You can say "I'd rather not worship him", but choosing to become atheist just because he doesn't act the way you think he should is improper.


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post Nov 21 2010, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE(LiteSpeed @ Nov 21 2010, 04:38 PM) *
But how can we be so sure that that was the case back then? There was no paper to write it down on if they didn't kill, as trees are alive, and supposedly there was only Adam and Eve. How did it get passed on then? And if it did happen to, like all messages transmitted verbally, it would get altered by mishearings and other factors. For all we know, it could be a tale made up by someone. There's no actual proof as of yet that can decide if a deity exists or not, but there's a lot more proof going with atheists than against.

Also, if humans were supposed to be perfect, then wouldn't we have the knowledge and sense of wrong and right to avoid sins overall?


Too bad we aren't perfect. That's why God is there to guide us. Only God is perfect. To acknowledge that humans are perfect is ignorant. We wouldn't have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge if we were perfect. Yet, we would not know that things are good and bad. So was eating from the Tree good or bad? A perfect being would know this answer. But only God would know. He sent us away from the tree for us to learn that we made a choice that can not be taken back. Again, this situation is the whole "two sides of the same coin" argument.

QUOTE(PikaDiety @ Nov 21 2010, 07:29 PM) *
That's why I'm not Christian. I hate the reward system. It makes God look like a big time company that's always doing those buy one, get one free things. "Believe in me or burn for eternity!" Seriously? If that's how God is, I'd rather be an atheist. (Even though I'm pagan.xD) If the only way to get to heaven is believe in god, then he isn't a loving god. Because someone can be an atheist and a wonderful person. But because of the fact the fact that they don't believe in god, they'll go to hell? While someone can be a horrible, cruel, heartless person and go to heaven just because they believe in god? I wouldn't want a god like that.


So people should believe in a religion because of the reward system. Yes, of course! That is exactly why people believe in Christianity.

"So if I believe in God, I get sent to heaven."
"So if he does not exist, there is a 50/50 chance that I will go to heaven"

"I do not believe in God."
"There is no way I can go to heaven."

This idea is flawed on the base principles.

Religion isn't about all the rewards a person can reap, it is about faith in God that he will be a guidance. Rewards are just a icing on the cake. God knows all and sees all, he would know that a person just believes in the rewards and not God himself. People that places these "safe" bets on God...

Get your head out of the sand. Again, God isn't just a being that churns out rewards. So if you do not like the rewards, you do not believe in the religion. What the hell? Religion is far more complex than your little one-sided thought process. Religion is a belief system that provides hope.


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Reyo
post Nov 22 2010, 12:03 AM
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QUOTE(FancyGranola @ Nov 22 2010, 12:24 AM) *
QUOTE(LiteSpeed @ Nov 21 2010, 04:38 PM) *
But how can we be so sure that that was the case back then? There was no paper to write it down on if they didn't kill, as trees are alive, and supposedly there was only Adam and Eve. How did it get passed on then? And if it did happen to, like all messages transmitted verbally, it would get altered by mishearings and other factors. For all we know, it could be a tale made up by someone. There's no actual proof as of yet that can decide if a deity exists or not, but there's a lot more proof going with atheists than against.

Also, if humans were supposed to be perfect, then wouldn't we have the knowledge and sense of wrong and right to avoid sins overall?


Too bad we aren't perfect. That's why God is there to guide us. Only God is perfect. To acknowledge that humans are perfect is ignorant. We wouldn't have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge if we were perfect. Yet, we would not know that things are good and bad. So was eating from the Tree good or bad? A perfect being would know this answer. But only God would know. He sent us away from the tree for us to learn that we made a choice that can not be taken back. Again, this situation is the whole "two sides of the same coin" argument.

QUOTE(PikaDiety @ Nov 21 2010, 07:29 PM) *
That's why I'm not Christian. I hate the reward system. It makes God look like a big time company that's always doing those buy one, get one free things. "Believe in me or burn for eternity!" Seriously? If that's how God is, I'd rather be an atheist. (Even though I'm pagan.xD) If the only way to get to heaven is believe in god, then he isn't a loving god. Because someone can be an atheist and a wonderful person. But because of the fact the fact that they don't believe in god, they'll go to hell? While someone can be a horrible, cruel, heartless person and go to heaven just because they believe in god? I wouldn't want a god like that.


So people should believe in a religion because of the reward system. Yes, of course! That is exactly why people believe in Christianity.

"So if I believe in God, I get sent to heaven."
"So if he does not exist, there is a 50/50 chance that I will go to heaven"

"I do not believe in God."
"There is no way I can go to heaven."

This idea is flawed on the base principles.

Religion isn't about all the rewards a person can reap, it is about faith in God that he will be a guidance. Rewards are just a icing on the cake. God knows all and sees all, he would know that a person just believes in the rewards and not God himself. People that places these "safe" bets on God...

Get your head out of the sand. Again, God isn't just a being that churns out rewards. So if you do not like the rewards, you do not believe in the religion. What the hell? Religion is far more complex than your little one-sided thought process. Religion is a belief system that provides hope.


What of the belief system where I keep the possibility in mind...because he just might exist?


--------------------
space...spacespace...wanna go to space...I'm in space...are we in space...I wanna into space, are you space? Uh oh, space police, stay cool. Space..space..space space..ba ba, ba, ba, bababa, ba, ba space. Dad, are you space? Yes, now we can be a family again. Space space...need...space...need a rocket...wanna buy a rocket? It's for space...need one...buy one from space store...space store...space...space...space supplies...space ship...space rocket...rocket..space...soup...space soup...from space cafe...space waiter there's a space fly in my space soup...spacespace....must...


SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-
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