[X] My Assistant

[Andre Young]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbCcb6NV8Io...feature=related

This video gives you a pretty good reason not to belive the government. They said a plane hit the towers. This footage seems to say...
Missiles hit the towers.
I've also heard stuff from survivors like they saw a military helicoptor fly around the towers before the explosion happened.
Hmmm....

[Lord Raven]

You can't trust everything youtube says. And where did you read the latter point?

Please tell me I'm not the only one who's tempted to lock this - then again, the standards for this board aren't specified so I don't think I can do so.

EDIT: This came to mind because I've been on FESS long enough to see what they lock for and what they don't - it's really not much to do with the topic at hand. (Actually, it is quite a bit to do with it; I just don't know how to express my point here - don't take it the wrong way is what I'm trying to say).

EDIT 2: Word of advice: unless you're REALLY convinced, don't let youtube sway you away from your already established point of view. The video I saw wasn't very convincing at all, and it would've been proven sometime in the past six and a half years if what you said and linked to were to hold water.

[Lester Burnham]

What idiot believes it was a missile? We SAW the destruction with our own eyes. We SAW the dead people. No people can fit in a missile.

ANY FUCKING THING can look like a missile. A BIRD flying by looks like a missile if it goes by fast enough. Adding to the altitude and sun position, I'd say you and everyone else who believes in this conspiracy theory needs their head checked.

[Bloatedfish]

I'm not even going to bother watching that video lol. If it was really that obvious, I'm sure somebody with a bit more merit than some random person on YouTube would have noticed it before.
I know people who've had relatives die in the WTC attack, and I'm sure that they wouldn't appreciate the attack trivialised like that.

[Lester Burnham]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who's tempted to lock this - then again, the standards for this board aren't specified so I don't think I can do so.

You're not the only one.

I agree with Bloatedfish. People with relatives that died in the attacks would be upset to see this happen. They want to lay their memories to rest, not bring up the scars of the past again.

[Lug]

i wouldn't be surprised if all these conspiracy videos are edited in some way to make it look like missiles or w/e else they say it could be

besides, even if someone did find good hard concrete proof, it wouldn't do too much good. any other evidence from ground zero to help their theory would be gone.

[Guest_Hokkai no Oni_*]

Thinking you should be locking a topic on the forum simply because it offers a contrasting point of view to the one commonly accepted is the hallmark of an idiot. If you can't discuss or debate things freely on a forum, then that forum loses all meaning, unless all you want from it is a kind of collective masturbation where everyone agrees with each other. What rules exactly has the original poster broken to make the thought even enter your skull? None that I can detect, and I wrote the site rules, back when I was still an administrator. If it's based on the fact that you don't want to consider what he's saying, that shows something wrong with how this place and your minds work, and I don't think I like that.

Secondly, just because other sites do such craven censoring is no excuse for starting to do it yourself.

Ike, your word of "advice" not to believe everything you see and hear is hypocritical. Your basis is that the video was posted on Youtube. I happen to know that the clip posted is taken from a documentary, not the creation of the person who posted it online. However, I am sure that you believe what you see on the news and in the newspapers... what makes those sources of information more trustworthy? That they are regulated by industry and legal standards? I would argue that those are all the more reason not to trust the news and other media.

Archangel - You say we saw the destruction and the bodies "with our own eyes". Err... were you there? Did you really see what happened for yourself? I know I didn't. I know exactly where and what I was doing when it happened. I was watching the TV at home, children's cartoons to be precise, about five minutes after getting home from work and an urgent news report interrupted my program after the first "plane" hit the towers. (I won't comment about how millions of children were exposed to what is supposedly mass-murder before anyone else due to the timing). Seeing something on TV is NOT seeing it with your own eyes, in the sense that the media is subject to editorial controls. It is filtered, it can be manipulated. You are the one who is the real idiot if you're incapable of distinguishing between something you see in the media and something you experience for yourself.

Bloatedfish... I would have thought that the families of the people who died would be exactly the sort of people who would be most interested in this kind of thing. How is it trivialising their deaths? If true, it means that those people were murdered not by terrorists but by the very people who are meant to protect them! That's not trivial! That is the polar opposite of fucking trivial! What kind of logic or frame of reference do you operate under anyway? Clearly not one grounded in common sense. If someone I knew died in a supposed terrorist attack and somebody told me that might not be the truth, I would do everything I could to find out what really happened and which version of events is the more accurate, if either.

Back to Archangel. Not any fucking thing can look like a missile at all. I have designed and built missiles and weapons and military aircraft myself, and there's a big difference in flight profiles between a bird, a plane, and a missile. There's a big difference in radar image, and you can bet that New York is monitored by radar. That those planes got that far and got close enough to hit the World Trade Center is in itself suspicious, as I know for a fact that technology is so advanced that the idea that nobody at all realised those planes were hijacked and heading for a collision over New York is inconceivable. This isn't the fucking Bermuda Triangle, this is one of the biggest cities in the world, in the richest and most advanced nation in the world at the time. There are police helicopters over that city all day every day, air ambulances, civilian aircraft. There's a major international airport nearby. Somebody must have noticed, and they are either being quiet about it or have been compelled to. Either the American government, air traffic control, police and military are criminally incompetent, or something else was going on.

I'm not saying this video is the truth. I do not know. I do know however, that you cannot simply believe everything that is drip fed to you by the media and by governments. The media is used to control, manipulate, mollify, artificially titillate, and suppress individual thinking. That is a fact. Most "news" is shit like what celebrity is on drugs or which minor politician was caught fucking the secretary, which should give you a clear indication of how the system works, and many points of genuine concern are either gone over briefly, or not at all, or not entirely truthfully.

You're all sheep, and some of the comments here disgust me, and make me ashamed to be a modern human being. What have we become, how are we so very high and advanced, where is the intelligence and the reasoning, when everybody is closed off automatically to anything that contradicts their force-fed "truth", without even considering it impersonally and critically? Where the people who do consider these alternatives and who might come to a conclusion that differs with the official line are written off as cranks, paranoid idiots with tinfoil in their hats, or even radicals or terrorists?

Congratulations all of you. You bastions of modern society.

[Lord Raven]

Secondly, just because other sites do such craven censoring is no excuse for starting to do it yourself.

I was trying to say that I said that because I was used to seeing such things on another forum, and that I later on meant to not have it taken the wrong way; I didn't lock it because it wasn't the same forum. The thought came into my head for that reason.

Ike, your word of "advice" not to believe everything you see and hear is hypocritical. Your basis is that the video was posted on Youtube. I happen to know that the clip posted is taken from a documentary, not the creation of the person who posted it online. However, I am sure that you believe what you see on the news and in the newspapers... what makes those sources of information more trustworthy? That they are regulated by industry and legal standards? I would argue that those are all the more reason not to trust the news and other media.

Perhaps I should've worded it a little less specifically, then.

Yet I'm curious how the person in question even managed to take the shot of the plane going through the tower, whoever did it.

Also, for God's sake calm down in this board for once. I don't really care what you're trying to do or whether or not your intent is positive or your reasons or anything to that extent, your tone is still very harsh. If you're going to reply to this particular warning, take it to PM; honestly I'm not dealing with this publicly.

[Lester Burnham]

Back to Archangel. Not any fucking thing can look like a missile at all. I have designed and built missiles and weapons and military aircraft myself, and there's a big difference in flight profiles between a bird, a plane, and a missile. There's a big difference in radar image, and you can bet that New York is monitored by radar. That those planes got that far and got close enough to hit the World Trade Center is in itself suspicious, as I know for a fact that technology is so advanced that the idea that nobody at all realised those planes were hijacked and heading for a collision over New York is inconceivable. This isn't the fucking Bermuda Triangle, this is one of the biggest cities in the world, in the richest and most advanced nation in the world at the time. There are police helicopters over that city all day every day, air ambulances, civilian aircraft. There's a major international airport nearby. Somebody must have noticed, and they are either being quiet about it or have been compelled to. Either the American government, air traffic control, police and military are criminally incompetent, or something else was going on.

You obviously didn't read my whole post because I said anything can look like a missile at a certain speed/altitude.

[Zerxer]

The only 9/11 conspiracy video I've ever seen was Loose Change (the 2nd edition) by Louder Than Words and honestly they made some very good points and made it very believable. If you'd sit and watch the entire hour and a half or however long it is, you'd start questioning some things too. I do believe that something was not right about it all. Though, these people don't say it was a missile that hit the trade centers, even I highly doubt that. They're saying it was a planned demolition with bombs inside going off which made it collapse because of the way the fire/puffs of smoke shot out from the sides level by level in the way that they did. They show footage from other times planes have hit buildings or buildings burned for a long time and the buildings never collapsed the way that the towers did.

They do however say in that video that it was a missile that hit the Pentagon because of the fact that there was virtually no remains of the plane left after the crash just like how there were no bodies found or something from the plane crash in PA. They also show something else about how one of the planes actually landed at an airport and they moved everyone.

Either way, watch that one if you really want, believe what makes you feel better, doesn't matter.

[Guest_Hokkai no Oni_*]

You obviously didn't read my whole post because I said anything can look like a missile at a certain speed/altitude.

This was not high altitude, and it was travelling slowly. Also, a jumbo jet passenger plane is pretty darn big. If we were talking about something small and fast, and high up, it might conceivably look to the naked eye like a missile or something. But we'd have to be talking about a modern jet fighter or something when it comes to a plane, and those tend to be rather difficult to hijack. The only missiles that look sort of like planes (due to their large control vanes that look like plane wings) unless they have been mocked specifically up to look like one as a Ruse de Guerre are cruise missiles and certain IBMs, and those would have wiped out the entire tower and most of the surrounding area in seconds. There is no way you can mistake a lumbering jumbo jet for a missile unless that is what you are supposed to think; it's too big, too slow, and rather more manoeuvrable. Futhermore, my main point of rebuttal is that radar and satellite and GPS would all have seen those planes/missiles/whatever. And if it was somewhat too low for radar, which is possible, satellite tracking and GPS don't have such considerations and should still have realised what was happening. You could not mistake those planes for missiles, you would have seen one or the other.

And yes, my tone is harsh. I have a pretty hard time sitting here reading stupid comments that have been given no thought whatsoever without getting angry. If you people would just THINK about things intelligently before spouting crap, I wouldn't be quite so hostile. I can debate civilly when the arguments are intelligent and considered, but one of the people who posted here didn't even watch the damned video. I'm sorry, trivial? Not only is it not, but how would you even know? What qualifies you to comment on something you haven't even seen? Is it because the original poster's name is FidelCastro and you assumed it was some sort of Communist propaganda, or are you just that stupid yet opinionated? Why exactly is it that the more uninformed someone is, the more they're likely to stand up and demand to be heard and agreed with?

And for the record, I am being calm. This is barely contained anger. If I wasn't calm you'd have no choice but to remove me from this forum, because anger, intelligence and a near perfect command of the English language are much more potent weapons that you might think, and I can assure you if I said exactly what I wanted to say people would be much more upset and not simply quibbling about my tone.

Just start THINKING for yourselves, independently and critically for once!

[Lord Raven]

And for the record, I am being calm.

From your view, not mine.

Calling people idiots during debating is not calm, last time I checked.

[Guest_Hokkai no Oni_*]

That's probably because you're one of the people I called an idiot, and you no doubt took offence to it. It's not meant to be purely insulting (I'm much more creative when I wish to truly offend), it's more an observation. A blunt observation, and yes, it is one based on my viewpoint, but it is still just an observation. Also, if you've never had someone calmly and coolly call you an idiot before, you must know a lot of particularly over-emotional people.

This is beside the point however, and merely distracts from the original subject matter and my exhorting you all to actually use that grey matter you were born with to think about things objectively rather than idiotically following something simply because it is the official line, or conversely because it isn't. Opinions expressed out of familiarity and not out of your own reasoned analysis of the subject, thought about from both sides of the argument without prejudice, are worthless and not really those of the person saying them, but rather of the person who first told those views to them before.

People who cannot think for themselves are idiots, and it's obvious that no real thought, time, research or consideration was put into the posts I responded so hostilely to. It's more immature and insulting to mock someone out of hand for expressing a different point of view than it is to bluntly show your frustration and anger in no uncertain terms in my opinion.

[Big Bidoof]

Ramsden, he's right; you don't need to go calling people idiots and such.

[Lester Burnham]

Honestly Ramsden, you're the smartest person on this board, and one of the smartest people I've known.

But you need to shut up.

You're acting like a five-year-old who just dropped their ice cream. Just because someone has an opinion, you go off on a 20-page monologue about how they're wrong and call them stupid in every matter. Honestly, if we cared, we'd ask your opinion. But right now, you're just being a selfish, self-centered prick. You're acting as if your opinion is correct all the time. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm not God, I won't judge it. However, you are degrading everyone here saying they're idiots for having the wrong opinion in your eyes. You're sparking arguments that shouldn't be coming about right now. You're pissing Ike and me off, as well as some others (I'm not a mind-reader, but Ike has obviously shown this fact). I'm not saying you're wrong, however, you need to understand that the whole world doesn't operate on your level. You don't need to argue your point so thoroughly as to dissect it verbatim.

Now, ladies and gentlemen, let's get back on-topic here. I'm getting sick of seeing soliquicy-long debates over people's opinion.

[Guest_Hokkai no Oni_*]

You've missed the point entirely. It's not your opinion no matter that you're spouting it off, if you're just repeating what you've been told to think by someone else.

I can handle being disagreed with. But I do insist that the other party at least put some thought and effort into it rather than the kind of ill-thought out rubbish in this topic. I know I'm not always right, and I never said I was at any point. All I have done is exhort you to put a little damned critical thought into your responses. And what exactly is with you getting at the length of my posts? For one thing, not all soliloquies are long (not to mention a soliloquy is a dramatic monologue used in plays and films because you can't know what the character is thinking otherwise and I'm addressing other people not myself), and secondly, this is a debate forum. If you cannot go into detail and justify what you're saying what's the point? "I THINK THIS, LOL, BUT I WON'T SAY WHY PROPERLY COS U ALL GOES OH NOES AND TL:RL!" And if you have a problem with reading long posts, a) what are you doing here on a text-based forum, and b) you're not going to be very effective as a moderator if you hold bizarre prejudices against people who type in more than one or two typo'd abbreviations and smiley faces. None of my posts here has 20 paragraphs, much less 20 pages.

Now obviously I'm getting nowhere with this, and I see that Ike has warned me too over it for "hostility on the debate board". Which it was nice of him to PM me and let me know, or explain it. Which is ludicrous really, considering that in your own less verbose ways you were all being hostile towards FidelCastro's original post. Hypocritical is the word that comes to mind.

Going by "if we cared, we'd ask your opinion", it's pretty obvious that this so-called debate forum isn't open to actual debate but rather is an invite-only mutual masturbation love-in for people who care more about being nice to one another so long as they're part of the majority and making empty vacuous comments that serve no purpose but to make it look like you have an opinion about something when you clearly haven't thought about it to have one.

So on that note, I'm leaving this topic and this forum, before one of you jumped-up little children masquerading as adults swing your banhammer of ego into my back again.

[Commander Wymsy]

I am closing this topic, but I'm going to reiterate some stuff that Ramsden has said because he's right; tons of you are missing the entire point. No more warnings need to be handed out, but some of you people really need to open your eyes.

He's right, a good amount of you are indeed being hypocritical. Not only that, but going on an "if we care, we'll ask your opinion" mentality in a debate board defeats the entire purpose of a debate board. Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with somebody explaining themselves. In fact, there is something wrong if somebody doesn't explain themselves. It's even more wrong if you think somebody explaining themselves is bad. You could stop shoving words down Ramsden's throat while you're at it. He has never said he is always right and seriously meant it anywhere in this topic (or the entire forum for that matter). Most people don't think like me, but I find being so vocally hypocritical and shoving words down a person's throat to be worse than just calling a few people "idiots". All this looks like is another case of "it isn't the argument that matters, it's the arguer" to me, but whatever.

Thread closed. FidelCastro, if you wish to, you can remake this topic. But I do not want to see something like this happen again should the topic be remade.