[X] My Assistant

[MoogleSam]

I cannot remember if I posted here before, but I do not think abortion is right. You're giving up your own child. I think that is cold and heartless. If you did not want the baby in the first place, why have it? It just isn't right and in my opinion doesn't exactly make sense.
Whoever does abort though is cold and heartless, unless, they were doing it for a good reason. The only good way I can see you abort a child is if you cannot afford to take care of them or something like that, then it could appear to make sense and seem right.

Condoms can break, the pill can fail, coils can come out (I heard that happened to one girl at my school but she didn't become pregnant), spermicides can fail, their drink could have been spiked so they became very drunk and no longer knew what they were doing, or so on. It is not always the person's fault if they become pregnant.

No, whoever does abort is not cold and heartless, they are ordinary people making a choice, not monsters with no hearts. Pretty much all reasons can be justified in some way to make it a good reason for abortion.

They don't want it? They could be abusive parents if forced to keep it, the contraception could have failed and they never wanted a child in the first place which could cause them to hate it and mistreat it due to that.

They can't afford it? Well, of course that is reasonable, right? Financial problems can happen suddenly.

If the fetus/baby is going to kill you? Then duh, that's a good reason. Adults can try to have another baby soon afterwards so it is not worth dying for.

If the baby is highly likely to have a mental condition or a disability, then once again, that is a good reason. Why? Children with mental conditions and/or disabilities are harder to care for and look after and cost more to look after than a child without them. People also have a harder time handling them and could become abusive or neglectful. They could also develop depression due to the stress of raising the child. They are more draining in general and though they aren't bad people, they can be too hard for people to raise.

They change their minds? Perfectly reasonable. They could realise they are too immature to raise a child and decide that abortion is the best solution. Again, could become abusive if forced to keep it.

They were raped? They could have psychological damage and be unable to care for it due to this or hate it because it has half of the DNA of their rapist and therefore act abusive or neglectful.

I actually can't think of a bad reason to get an abortion besides the reason that it is murder but I don't see it as wrong murder even if it would still be technically murder. It would be similar to killing a parasite in my mind because that is what it is until it is born, a parasite. It is relying on the mother for everything: oxygen, water, food, getting rid of waste and protection. People have every right to get rid of parasites because they make them unwell, which is what children do until born too. Sometimes people can't handle that, no one likes feeling sick after all.

However, despite the reasons of getting an abortion being easily justified, the getting pregnant in the first place isn't always for a good reason and isn't as easily justified at times. :/

Giving them up for adoption is another option but as I mentioned in my last few posts here, children not adopted can feel unloved and unwanted if not adopted. That can lead to depression and them ending their own lives which is worse than the parents ending it before they understand life. Or it can lead to self-esteem issues, an 'everyone hates me' mindset which can lead them to harm others on purpose, or it could just make them angry as hell that they were abandoned before given a chance. It could seriously affect their personality really.

[Iconox]

Yeah, those are all reasons that people would use to justify having an abortion; however, one can justify anything. When it comes down to it, there is no wrong or right murder.

[PikaDiety]

Uh, abortion isn't murder.>.> That is one of the stupidest arguments out there on the anti-choice side. (Who I refuse to call pro-life, considering there are so many contradictions on that side of the spectrum. But that's for another post.) Until the fetus is born, it is a fetus, not a baby. A fetus is a lot like an internal parasite. And those aren't bullshit excuses, they are true. It is also true that the adoption system is complete crap and a lot of children grow up without any love. Even if it was murder to abort a fetus, I would rather kill my own fetus than give them to the adoption system. And that does not make me cold hearted. Especially with the fact that children depend on human touch to grow and function, especially babies. So, being denied the love and attention they need after being put in the adoption system is much more cruel than abortion. Add in the fact that fetuses do not have souls and cannot feel pain, your argument is invalid.

[Iconox]

When did I say I wasn't pro-choice? If you want to kill your child, who am I to stop you? Once the kid has a beating heart, it's alive from a biological standpoint. And yes, after 20 weeks a fetus can feel pain. I just don't enjoy the parent making the decision of whether or not their child gets to live. But, unlike the converse, I respect your opinion and will not criticize it.

[Lord Raven]

MoogleSam, I'm not sure who you're trying to convince, considering they already stated their stance to be essentially agreeing with you. Unless you were arguing on principle and not stance.

(Who I refuse to call pro-life, considering there are so many contradictions on that side of the spectrum. But that's for another post.)

Make that post.

Until the fetus is born, it is a fetus, not a baby. A fetus is a lot like an internal parasite. And those aren't bullshit excuses, they are true. It is also true that the adoption system is complete crap and a lot of children grow up without any love. Even if it was murder to abort a fetus, I would rather kill my own fetus than give them to the adoption system. And that does not make me cold hearted. Especially with the fact that children depend on human touch to grow and function, especially babies. So, being denied the love and attention they need after being put in the adoption system is much more cruel than abortion. Add in the fact that fetuses do not have souls and cannot feel pain, your argument is invalid.

Well first off, "soul" is subjective too considering people like me, while we are spiritual to some extent, actually don't necessarily believe in the concept of the "soul" at all. You can't objectively prove that abortion is not murder while bringing in a subjective argument, it's not the right way to prove your point.

Furthermore, the fetus is literally alive. You are killing life, no matter what, and murder is the killing of a living being essentially. It is also human, genetically, so you are technically killing another human, if you want to get into the actual technicalities of it (since you're calling the fetus a parasite, which is technically true).

Though, from there, as I've said too many times before, what constitutes moral/legal murder and what does not is up to you; conscience vs non-conscience.

You seem extremely cold about the way you present your point, but I feel as if we are able to speak like we do -- in saying we'd abort a fetus if we needed to -- because we haven't been in that situation. I don't disagree with your stance (I'm pro-choice), but I'm just saying you're far too adamant with dismissing everything in your post. As far as I can see you're listing reasons not to place babies up for adoption as opposed to allowing abortions to occur. The two are related, very little, but it still feels like kind of a stretch to justify abortion with "they'll live shitty lives anyway..." which is not necessarily true, considering many could end up productive with their lives regardless of adoption.

[MoogleSam]

MoogleSam, I'm not sure who you're trying to convince, considering they already stated their stance to be essentially agreeing with you. Unless you were arguing on principle and not stance.

I wasn't exactly trying to convince anyone but more explain that there aren't really bad reasons for abortions and why they would get them because Kira Wolf said it didn't really make sense to her(?) unless they couldn't afford it. As well as explaining that the pregnancies may not always be the person's fault though of course, sometimes it is and that the pregnancies themselves could be for a bad reason.

Though it was stated she was pro-choice, I didn't look at this actual page again until I finished my reply as well sooooo, yeah. XD

[Blueberry]

I really do think abortions should just be legalized and it made a law not to harass these people. You have a right to protest but when my friend got her abortion this lady basically made her cry and it's things and vicious acts like this that make me hate people who make you pick a side. She wanted to give up the child for adoption but it was simply not working for her with her drug use so that was her option.

When I looked at the children of Chernobyl I would of given the child up for abortion because they suffer more alive than letting their "souls" be placed into another being to be reborn into a potentially better lifestyle.

After reading "What Dreams May Come" by Richard Matheson (which had nothing to do with abortion; just life and death) I did get another view on abortion. That what is growing inside your belly is a vessel for another being. And if the soul inside it has not..."taken" then the life is not wasted. Just simply placed elsewhere.

I actually hate that the two common reasons "pro-choice" people argue for abortion is "what about rape?" or "what if it's born into a family that can't take care of it properly?" but really if a person can seriously walk into a clinic and give up the thing (I say thing because I do not consider them a person or a living being until it is actually born) growing in their belly and seriously deal with the emotional bitch-slap an abortion is than go for it.

These pictures are HIGHLY DISTURBING in some of these links, so be careful unless you are ready for reality:
For things like Chernobyl's accident (if you have not seen the pictures of the victims from this then do google them) and Neural Tube Defects such as Anencephaly..I could not morally bring that child into the world without thinking I would be damned to where ever I was going if there is an afterlife.

Abortion depends on the person but I don't think the government has ANY right to take a woman's right to choose away from her and no one has the right to bitch at a woman for what she wants to do cause you don't have to live with her choice, she does. If god wants to punish her for what she has done then let Him do it. It is NOT your job or the governments.

[Skins T]

I've noticed that a lot of people seem to miss two key things, too:

Pro-Choice = Supporting the choice to make an abortion, not always abortion itself.

Pro-Abortion = Supporting abortion itself.

While it might seem like a minute difference, it's actually a rather large one. I consider myself Pro-Choice, but I am not Pro-Abortion. I dislike the idea of abortion yet I have the brains to know that it is necessary in this day and age.

I think that Pro-Lifer's seem to be living in this fairytale world where every form of birth control works 100%, that rape doesn't happen, that woman AND men are good little angels and don't have sex until marriage, and who think that every woman who has an abortion is a slut/whore. [And may I point out that most Pro-Lifer's I have come across are either all of the above or only some of it]

What needs to change is this mindset. Woman are NOT all whores and sluts. Woman are NOT incubators without rights, not anymore. So I don't think anyone should come in here and say 'she deserved it', or 'she should deal with it.'

No. You [in general] are an idiot if you believe that it is the woman's fault every time if she falls pregnant. And you are an even bigger idiot if you think that woman should be forced to raise that child for the rest of her life.

Because yes, it is not 18 years people. It is until the child's life ends or the mother's life ends, whichever comes first.

So to any future Pro-Lifer who stumbles into this thread with their biased crap, I ask you this - Get out of your mother's basement/Bible/bedroom and open your eyes to the real world. It isn't your fantasy land where everything is chipper.

[Blueberry]

@Skin-T: No one uses the term "Pro-abortion" even if you are an abortion supporter, you wouldn't use that term. Really in the argument it's either "pro-life" or "pro-choice". Whether those who agree with abortion as a right thing or not if you think it's up to the individuals right to choose then you are pro-choice. I, personally, would take offense to someone calling me "pro-abortion" (though I am) there is just a more euphemistic way of putting it (and it does spark instant debate if called it in public.) But Pro-choice can be applied to other things like gay-marriage.

I do agree though that our society is becoming a little bit too radical to honestly say that the bible is to be followed to the letter. And I went to the clinic and got birth control for free without any judgment. So really those who close their eyes off to things like birth control are usually turned off by their families because they do not believe in such things. They would rather their teenage children remain virgins (lmao) and not have sex (LOL) then consider something like birth control.

[daniff]

well if you have sex without contraception at a time when a child isn't ideal isn't that your fault if your life takes a turn for the worst....?

(rape is different)
if you chose to abort then you will have to live with the fact that your life could have been different (better or worse) and that you could have a had that child and if everything worked out it could have been amazing.

i would like to think that in most cases i would keep the child, but prolly i wouldn't, but i do think it would hurt to think that i was too immature/selfish to try and make it work.

[Galahawk]

well if you have sex without contraception at a time when a child isn't ideal isn't that your fault if your life takes a turn for the worst....?]

A person's quality of life can change in the blink of an eye. The mother may suddenly experience health issues that could threaten the life or potential lifestyle of the child. That or the child you're carrying might have a high potential to be born with a debilitating mental or physical condition due to your genetics, and you hadn't known this at the time you got pregnant. Children with mental or personality issues are much, much more difficult and expensive to raise than those without. (I would know because over my lifetime, I had to have occupational as well as psychiatric therapy which included expensive meds, and had to be placed in different classes at school due to the fact that I've had a learning disability for as long as I can remember. Add all this onto the fact that in elementary school I had to change schools twice and be homeschooled all throughout junior high due to issues that arose due to my problems.)
People can also lose their jobs, home, go bankrupt, or have their lives turned upside-down at any time, and these sudden changes may make the potential parents reconsider, and instead choose to have a child when they're back on their feet rather than in the middle of a crisis that didn't happen until AFTER they got pregnant.

I will agree with you that if the person is of age, in a good place in their life, the child will have a high chance or guarantee to be born normal and healthy, and no problems arise throughout the entire pregnancy, then they really have no reason to abort it. At that point and ONLY that point, to me, it seems more like they're aborting it just because they changed their mind. That goes without saying, of course, I personally believe that a woman should always have a choice.

This post has been edited by Galahawk: Apr 15 2011, 06:24 PM

[Amberfunk]

After years of being pro-life I have just come to the conclusion that I am pro-choice. But I am only pro-choice in certain situations: rape, the woman's life is in danger, the baby might not live and birth defects/genetic disorders. If a woman (teenagers, etc) decides to have sex without protection and knows full well that she could become pregnant by not using protection and becomes pregnant and wants to have an abortion, I have no sympathy for them at all. Accidents happen but it's not an accident when you choose not to use protection. Those women should pick adoption. The adoption rates for infants are very high and the child will more than likely go to a good family.

In cases of rape abortion I feel would be the only way. I myself could not raise that child and I don't think many others could either. Also if the child is given up for adoption or the mother decides to raise it there is a high likelihood that the child could grow up to become a rapist as well or have mental problems because of their genetic coding.

If the woman's life is in danger of course abortion is ok. Of course I'm sure that some women might choose to still go on with the pregnancy and deliver.

If the baby might not live abortion is of course acceptable by all means. I don't think anyone would want that child to be born and to suffer if they might just die anyway.

Birth defects and genetic disorders. There is a lot of birth defects and genetic disorders that abortion would be likely the only option, spina bifida, cystic fibrosis, heart defects etc. With these the child will more than likely have a crappy quality of life that I don't think anyone would want a child to have to live through or the child will die as with some heart defects.

Some personal reasons why I am pro-choice:
My cousin became pregnant last year by sleeping around, she was 19. My cousin also has the mentality of a twelve year old or younger and has no means to take care of a baby, no job and not going to school to better herself. She gave birth to a baby girl. The baby died less than a week later. She had a heart defect. My uncle and aunt were devastated. This could have been avoided had my cousin used birth control or had an abortion.

I became pregnant in 2007 when I was a senior in highschool. I was on birth control and also taking mood stabilizers that were in pregnancy category d. I would have had that baby but the risk of it being born with a disabling disorder was enough to make my decision. I would not have wanted a child to have to live like that.

And as a response to the fetus not being able to feel pain, a fetus can feel pain as early as 16 weeks.

This post has been edited by amberfunk: Apr 18 2011, 07:14 PM

[Iconox]

...high likelihood that the child could grow up to become a rapist as well or have mental problems because of their genetic coding.

I can understand your opinion; though, just because someone's a rapist doesn't mean that their child will become one. Crimes aren't part of one's genetic makeup. Now, schizophrenia could be inherited; however, there is no 'rape' gene.

[Amberfunk]

...high likelihood that the child could grow up to become a rapist as well or have mental problems because of their genetic coding.

I can understand your opinion; though, just because someone's a rapist doesn't mean that their child will become one. Crimes aren't part of one's genetic makeup. Now, schizophrenia could be inherited; however, there is no 'rape' gene.

Sorry I should have made it clearer. I didn't mean that rape is in a person's genetic coding. Just like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and other personality disorders are inheritable through genetics so are the disorders that a lot of rapists have. That's what I meant that the child could inherit that particular genetic coding for some mental disorder that could cause them to become rapists or something else that's bad.

Or perhaps that a child that is a product of rape finds out somewhere along the line in their life that they are the product of rape it could cause the cycle of that child becoming like their father who was a rapist. Just like in abusive homes the child/ren could themselves grow up to be abusive.

I'm not saying that all children that are the product of rape grow up to be bad people. I'm just saying that is what might happen in a bunch of different possibilities.

[Stark Coyote]

I'm against abortion. You should pay for your mistakes, it breaks my heart when i see aborted young babys who will never get a chance in this world. Imagine, thousands of people "TRY" to make babies all the time but they sadly dont succeed with their plans to make a family. My friends mom was trying for 20 years to have a child, the doctor said it will be a miracle if she got pregnaent and if she did, the baby will surely die within a month, my friends mom proved that doctor square wrong <3 :] this topic is so . . . . ehhhh....

[Skins T]

No one uses the term "Pro-abortion" even if you are an abortion supporter, you wouldn't use that term. Really in the argument it's either "pro-life" or "pro-choice". Whether those who agree with abortion as a right thing or not if you think it's up to the individuals right to choose then you are pro-choice. I, personally, would take offense to someone calling me "pro-abortion" (though I am) there is just a more euphemistic way of putting it (and it does spark instant debate if called it in public.) But Pro-choice can be applied to other things like gay-marriage.

I've seen many Pro-Lifer's group those who are pro-abortion and pro-choice together in the one group, and the Pro-Choicer's argueing that what you are saying isn't the case. You'll find that many people who identify as pro-choice may or may not identify as pro-abortion.

You are one that does, I'm one that doesn't. It's not meant as an offense to you so much as a differing of opinion on what someone chooses to support.

well if you have sex without contraception at a time when a child isn't ideal isn't that your fault if your life takes a turn for the worst....?

Whose fault? The mother's or the fathers? A friend of mine engaged in consensual sex with a partner who removed his condom without her consent. Should she be blamed for getting pregnant?

(rape is different)

No, it isn't. The end result is the same. How the child got conceived should not matter.

if you chose to abort then you will have to live with the fact that your life could have been different (better or worse) and that you could have a had that child and if everything worked out it could have been amazing.

I'll word this another way:

if you chose not to abort then you will have to live with the fact that your life could have been different (better or worse) and that you could have not a had that child and if everything worked out it could have been amazing.

i would like to think that in most cases i would keep the child, but prolly i wouldn't, but i do think it would hurt to think that i was too immature/selfish to try and make it work.

So if a 9 year old is raped, falls pregnant, and gets an abortion, do you think she's selfish?

After years of being pro-life I have just come to the conclusion that I am pro-choice. But I am only pro-choice in certain situations: rape, the woman's life is in danger, the baby might not live and birth defects/genetic disorders. If a woman (teenagers, etc) decides to have sex without protection and knows full well that she could become pregnant by not using protection and becomes pregnant and wants to have an abortion, I have no sympathy for them at all. Accidents happen but it's not an accident when you choose not to use protection. Those women should pick adoption. The adoption rates for infants are very high and the child will more than likely go to a good family.

*Laughs bitterly. HARD*

Even if adoption rates for infants are high, are you aware that, according to adoption rates, about 1 in 100 children are actually adopted into 'good' families?

And also, I'll ask you the same question as the poster above: Why is how the fetus is conceived matter to you? The end result is the same no matter how it happened: the fetus gets aborted. Instead of judging woman for aborting, why not judge those who seek to stop sexual education, the root of problems in regards to this?

I also find it extremely ironic that you consider yourself better than other woman, considering you had an abortion. What, are you above other woman, are you? You're exactly the same as every other woman whose ever had an abortion. You had sex, you got pregnant, you had an abortion. It's as simple as that.

I implore you to read this: http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html Enjoy.

And as a response to the fetus not being able to feel pain, a fetus can feel pain as early as 16 weeks.

Wrong. This was proven as false and pro-life propaganda.

I'm against abortion. You should pay for your mistakes, it breaks my heart when i see aborted young babys who will never get a chance in this world. Imagine, thousands of people "TRY" to make babies all the time but they sadly dont succeed with their plans to make a family. My friends mom was trying for 20 years to have a child, the doctor said it will be a miracle if she got pregnaent and if she did, the baby will surely die within a month, my friends mom proved that doctor square wrong <3 :] this topic is so . . . . ehhhh....

Once again, I'll reword this:

I'm against abortion. The child should pay for your mistakes, it breaks my heart when i see young woman who will never get a chance in this world.

And no amount of aborted babies will make your mother, or anyone else who is sterile, fertile. Think about that.

[The Grouch]

Freedom of choice, definitely. Women should do what they want with their bodies, and there is also the case of lack of money/support, and we have enough homeless/orphaned children and babies already.

[Amberfunk]

*Laughs bitterly. HARD*

Even if adoption rates for infants are high, are you aware that, according to adoption rates, about 1 in 100 children are actually adopted into 'good' families?

And also, I'll ask you the same question as the poster above: Why is how the fetus is conceived matter to you? The end result is the same no matter how it happened: the fetus gets aborted. Instead of judging woman for aborting, why not judge those who seek to stop sexual education, the root of problems in regards to this?

I also find it extremely ironic that you consider yourself better than other woman, considering you had an abortion. What, are you above other woman, are you? You're exactly the same as every other woman whose ever had an abortion. You had sex, you got pregnant, you had an abortion. It's as simple as that.

I implore you to read this: http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html Enjoy.

I never said that I was better than other women that have had abortions. I simply said that I had good reason too being that the baby had over a 90% chance of being born with a disabling illness that I wouldn't want my child to go through. All I said was that if a woman, who is a teenager or otherwise, is going to have sex then she should be using protection and not use the fact that they didn't use protection an excuse for having an abortion. Also the lack of sex education is not always the case for some women that have sex without protection. I've known people that have had the best sex education and gone on to have sex without protection and got pregnant. I don't think it's right to abort when they could have done something to prevent getting pregnant in the first place. That's all I'm saying. I don't think it's right but also no one should be able to stop them from getting an abortion if they want one. It's my opinion and everyone has a right to one.

Don't say that I'm exactly the same as every other woman who has ever had an abortion or that all women that have had abortions are the same in their reasons or otherwise. Every woman that has had an abortion had one for their own reasons.

This post has been edited by amberfunk: Apr 19 2011, 02:52 PM

[Stark Coyote]

I'm against abortion. You should pay for your mistakes, it breaks my heart when i see aborted young babys who will never get a chance in this world. Imagine, thousands of people "TRY" to make babies all the time but they sadly dont succeed with their plans to make a family. My friends mom was trying for 20 years to have a child, the doctor said it will be a miracle if she got pregnaent and if she did, the baby will surely die within a month, my friends mom proved that doctor square wrong <3 :] this topic is so . . . . ehhhh....

Once again, I'll reword this:



I'm against abortion. The child should pay for your mistakes, it breaks my heart when i see young woman who will never get a chance in this world.

And no amount of aborted babies will make your mother, or anyone else who is sterile, fertile. Think about that.

hmmmm... what a democrat answer?


I did not think it was necessary to reword or dissect and switch around little words in my sentence?

Did you even read among the whole statement I put about this topic? I said "friends mother" my mother did have 2 wonderful, beautiful children, my brother & I. She had one mis-carriage so yeah, why don't you think about that when your aborting your 7 month old baby who couldv'e been the next person to make an antidote for Aids or Cancer Just Saying !

[Lord Raven]

I don't think it's right to abort when they could have done something to prevent getting pregnant in the first place.

I thank you for wording it like this but this point really irks me whenever someone brings it up. It almost feels like people are being punished for unprotected sex, and how unprotected sex sounds like such a sin that they should be punished with a baby or something like that. Something like that just irks me an extreme amount about this stream of logic...


(sorry, it's one point in a plethora of points that were made, i'm sick of arguing abortion since the other thread really got up my ass and there were like 20 pages of arguing between Reyo and I out of a 105+ page thread... got locked cause some asshole decided to be a troll in it)