[X] My Assistant

[FancyGranola]

If you think about it, we are all technically atheists at birth.

> Implying Atheists should stick to being pure as they were when they were born.

inb4butthurt.

No I disagree. Babies do not necessarily have a choice. You just imposed a belief on a baby - Atheism. That could also apply to religions. A baby could easily be designated a religion when it is born.

inb4:parents that give a choice of religion

Well, they impose a belief that a baby is allowed to choose a religion. It is a belief nonetheless.

But this entire post has nothing to do with Atheists being evil. I'm just setting the point straight because people immediately think that Atheism is not a belief when it is. You believe there is no God.

We live in an era where Science is our belief. Good job Industrial Revolution! A belief is nothing more than a belief it carries the same magnitude of significance as religion.

People immediately think Atheism < Religion because of Science. That's not the case at all.

[Tatzelwyrm]

I personally do not see the point of this thread. No matter what anyone says, it inevitably dwindles down into a debate on religion and the lack of it, which it already has.

And in the end, what does it matter? There are good people and there are bad people. Anything else is simply a label denoting specific groups. There are good and evil atheists, just as there are good and evil theists. You will encounter those on each side that are more vocal about their thoughts and beliefs than others, and I find it interesting that people have not really commented about this. I've seen something about atheists trying to convert others, but nothing about theists doing the same. My point is simply that both sides do things the other dislikes, so attributing something to one or the other just boggles me.





Edit;

RE: Atheists vs Christians

This is likely because Christianity is more or less the the dominant religion in the US. But, I'm not going to make assumptions.

This post has been edited by Tatzelwyrm: Dec 5 2010, 04:39 PM

[Dragonairz]

Atheist aren't bad people :/
enough said.

[FancyGranola]

Atheists are evil because they are the ones that defile the name of God - they are the ones that kill God. With in the introduction of the Industrial Revolution, science becomes the primary believe. Originally for a thousand years or so, people believed in God. It is God's will that things are created.

To go against God is to be evil. Atheists spread doubt in God converting believers into doubters. They have no faith. Without the support of believers God is essentially killed because no one believes in this entity. It is us the people that give meaning to God and it is the Atheists that act against the will of God.

[The Corrosion]

I used to have an atheist named Luca in my class in middle school, he always used to make up these theories in math class that never were true, but he got an a in math. More to the point his only quirk was that he was naieve and clueless. he was not evil in the sense of the word but he did say some things that people misinterpreted, but my class did not care.. Atheists are not evil, but just believe, that god/gods do not exist. I am an Atheist myself, I give money to help save the enviroment, I take good care of my cats, I am nice to my baby half-brother, I get A's, and I do not try to make other people not believe in god/gods. Atheists are normal people, but do not believe in god/gods... just my view.

This post has been edited by Painted Fox: Dec 6 2010, 02:12 AM

[roygbiv]

i am a christan but i tolorate any religion were all people on the inside i stick to my own beliefs i dont care what religion my friends are.

[bijoukaiba]

If you think about it, we are all technically atheists at birth.

> Implying Atheists should stick to being pure as they were when they were born.

inb4butthurt.

No I disagree. Babies do not necessarily have a choice. You just imposed a belief on a baby - Atheism. That could also apply to religions. A baby could easily be designated a religion when it is born.

inb4:parents that give a choice of religion

Well, they impose a belief that a baby is allowed to choose a religion. It is a belief nonetheless.

But this entire post has nothing to do with Atheists being evil. I'm just setting the point straight because people immediately think that Atheism is not a belief when it is. You believe there is no God.

We live in an era where Science is our belief. Good job Industrial Revolution! A belief is nothing more than a belief it carries the same magnitude of significance as religion.

People immediately think Atheism < Religion because of Science. That's not the case at all.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

Babies and very small children have no concept of God. They are taught these things by their parents. A baby is not born and suddenly tells their parents the basic storyline of the Bible on their own at the age of 2-3.

The child merely knows their parents and the immediate world around them. They don't know about God until they're about 5-6 years old. That's how old I was when my parents started introducing me to Christianity.

I almost want to run an experiment on small children, regardless of religion, that asks them where they think the world came from before their parents impose their beliefs on them - be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Atheism, whatever.

Yes, I would agree that atheism is a belief - it's just not a religion. The comparison is often made that "Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color".

Tatzelwyrm summed it up nicely. There will be good Christians. There will be good atheists. There will be bad Christians. There will be bad atheists. There will be good and bad people for every other religion.

This post has been edited by bijoukaiba: Jan 3 2011, 12:24 PM

[jhunter]

Adding on to the post above mine, if you were born and never taught of any sort of religion, you'd either not think of it, or create your own sort of religion, and believe that it is correct.

Religious debates are just a matter of thinks that they are more right.



But yeah, an atheist can be just as good or evil as a christian, jew, muslim, scientologist, whatever. If you are going to asume that someone is evil just because they do not agree with you over something so stupid.
I want someone who actually thinks people are evil/ good based on religion to post here though... I would like to see what they have to say.

[Tatzelwyrm]

@FancyGranola; Personally, I would say that I don't necessarily "believe" there is no God, I simply don't see enough evidence that one exists. As the sixth spectrum Dawkins lists in The God Delusion, "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there." This is where I stand in atheism. Of course, theists will still call that "a belief that he doesn't exist," but whatever. The evidence simply isn't there at this point, not in my eyes.


@bijoukaiba; Can't say I've heard that. Only the "If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby" one.



Also, in regards to babies. A child born into a religious family is not born an atheist. They are born into their parent's religious beliefs, and it's probable that they will grow up with that religion imposed on them. A child born into a non religious family is not necessarily born into atheism. Children are too young to truly grasp what religion and atheism are (Granted, there are some clever children out there, but do realize I speak in a general sense) and their beliefs are heavily influenced by their parents. There are no "Christian children," just as there are no "atheist children." Merely the child of parents who are Christian/atheist [Not picking on Christians, it is merely the predominate religion] .





|8 I'm going to go back to my previous point of "I see no point to this topic, in the end it is a debate between religion and atheism." Perhaps the title should change.

This post has been edited by Tatzelwyrm: Jan 16 2011, 04:21 AM

[Black Ice]

I personally find no joy in debating whether atheism is a religion or not. What exactly would one be trying to prove by arguing this point? Nothing useful at all, that's what.

Also, I don't think babies really are of any religions affinity when they are born. Atheism is the belief that gods or higher beings don't exist, and theism is the belief that gods exist. A baby would be neither, since it has has not the time nor the mental capacity to think about it. Right?

I don't see anything wrong with being atheist. An atheist who has morals and respect for others is a good slap in the face towards anyone who thinks religion is required to have any sense of morality.

[Lord Raven]

Also, I don't think babies really are of any religions affinity when they are born. Atheism is the belief that gods or higher beings don't exist, and theism is the belief that gods exist. A baby would be neither, since it has has not the time nor the mental capacity to think about it. Right?

I felt that atheism was the lack of belief in any sort of system or religion... contrary to what the word parts mean ('A-' meaning 'no' and '-theism' somehow meaning 'God' even though it has a word root of 'theory'). That would make a baby atheistic seeing as it has no belief system (because it lacks the awareness to do so)... but that's beside the point. We're still arguing atheism?

The only thing we can argue anymore is semantics which is pointless because I hate assigning words to my belief systems aside from the most vague I can use. "Indifferent" is a better word for my system than "atheist" because it gets off the connotations that I wish -- perfectly neutral with no sort of difference towards any party when it deals with religion. Even the word Atheist can rub people the wrong way, and very rarely the correct way.

On top of that, you can't really say much more than "babies don't have the ability to determine their own religion." It's pointless to argue whether or not this is deemed "atheist" because that's semantics/only arguing how to say the facts . Which is a waste of time. I feel as if this argument exists either for the sake if drawing out a thread with next to no potential, or because some religious peoples don't enjoy having their babies called "atheists" because they [the babies] don't know any better. Which goes back to semantics and the negative connotations of the word (the negative connotations which shouldn't exist, mind you).

[LiteSpeed]

Eh, it has become pointless. Mods, if you wish it, close the thread. LET IT BE DONE

[Lord Raven]

*shrug* we'll see where things go..

[bijoukaiba]

Also, I don't think babies really are of any religions affinity when they are born. Atheism is the belief that gods or higher beings don't exist, and theism is the belief that gods exist. A baby would be neither, since it has has not the time nor the mental capacity to think about it. Right?

I felt that atheism was the lack of belief in any sort of system or religion... contrary to what the word parts mean ('A-' meaning 'no' and '-theism' somehow meaning 'God' even though it has a word root of 'theory'). That would make a baby atheistic seeing as it has no belief system (because it lacks the awareness to do so)

This. Thank you, this is exactly what I was trying to explain earlier in the thread.

[GraphicCamel]

Well I am an "Atheist", or I guess you could say "Heavily Agnostic" if that is an even a term, or anything close. But I have recently joined a religion specifically made for non-believers known as Pasatafarianism (God is a flying spahgetti monster, known as FSM.) Though I don't actually believe in FSM, being Pastafarian has showed me why people are religious. I nowhave a group of people around the world that I can immeadietly connect to.

I have more to say, butI don't want totickanymore people off than I already am with the above paragraph. Anyone want the link to the FSM website?

[Lord Raven]

http://www.venganza.org/

Also, I don't think babies really are of any religions affinity when they are born. Atheism is the belief that gods or higher beings don't exist, and theism is the belief that gods exist. A baby would be neither, since it has has not the time nor the mental capacity to think about it. Right?

I felt that atheism was the lack of belief in any sort of system or religion... contrary to what the word parts mean ('A-' meaning 'no' and '-theism' somehow meaning 'God' even though it has a word root of 'theory'). That would make a baby atheistic seeing as it has no belief system (because it lacks the awareness to do so)

This. Thank you, this is exactly what I was trying to explain earlier in the thread.

I love how one-track this conversation is. You more or less looked to me for validation as to what you were saying, but you missed my most important points in the later portion of the post which not only trivializes what you're saying, but still puts the meaning of "atheism" up in the air for however one interprets it.

In other words, I feel just fucking ecstatic that you agree with the first paragraph of my post, but I feel terrible that you didn't read on.

[bijoukaiba]

:/ I did read the rest of the post, that was just the argument I had been trying to make in particular at that point. *feels stupid*

I guess it's just hard to explain, as stated. It's like they will have the potential to believe or not to believe, which will be influenced by what their parents want them to believe since children are very impressionable early on.

It's sort of how there's a lot of arguments over America being "a Christian nation" or being secular. Religious groups start complaining how - because of freedom of religion, and separation of church and state - some laws or rules offend their beliefs, like gay marriage, abortion, the death penalty, assisted suicide, prayer/Creationism in schools, etc. The latter one in particular... let's say the Christians got their way, and allowed students to pray in school. Other religions/beliefs, like Islam, Hindu, atheism, etc. might be offended that their beliefs aren't being considered. Why not teach the kids how the Greek gods created the world (after all, I do have a friend who actually does believe in the Greek gods)? In the end, the only way to be fair to everyone is to be fair to no one. When two kids are fighting over a toy, and refuse to take turns, what happens? Mom takes the toy away and tells them to play with something else.

So, because America's government cannot favor a religion in making decisions (it's not supposed to at least ), they make their decisions in a secular way (or, again, they are supposed to.)
So, because a baby cannot decide what it will believe in, it still does not believe anything.

I tried to have that make sense, but it still probably doesn't.

Just go back to the initial argument. There are good and bad people everywhere, and beliefs/religion don't necessarily have an effect on that. Boom. Done.

This post has been edited by bijoukaiba: Jan 28 2011, 10:56 PM

[Lord Raven]

i think america set itself up for contradiction. majority rule vs the bill of rights... which is prioritized here?

[Iconox]

I'm a Christian. Sure, I might think that atheists don't believe the right thing, but I'm not running around and yelling at them to convert and what not. I don't normally even bring my personal views up unless I'm explicitly asked. What you believe is what you believe; anything else is just infringing on that freedom.

[Tatzelwyrm]

Ah. Now if only more theists had something similar to that mindset.