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Posted by: LiteSpeed Nov 12 2010, 10:57 PM

So I was talking to the person next to me in class today, and brought up the topic of Atheism as I often do. I don't often befriend people who believe Atheists are evil and will go to Hell just cause they don't believe in a higher power, blah blah blah. So I figured I'd ask the member base here. What's your view on being Atheist?


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Personally, I don't see a problem with having your own thoughts and beliefs. It's not like either side can be 100% proven, you just usually lean towards the side you think is better argued or supported.

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 14 2010, 06:51 AM

You either believe in a god(s) or no. Pretty simple. I've figured out my meaning of life. A God or not, I'm resting on my own laurels so I'm contented.

Posted by: Samoosion Nov 14 2010, 07:18 AM

That's just a bit pathetic if you ask me.

Atheists aren't evil But yeah, believe what you believe... Nothing will change what I view.

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 14 2010, 07:24 AM

That's America.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 15 2010, 01:21 PM

Atheists aren't evil. An atheist, however, can be an egotistical douche who's just as bad as an evangelical religious person who likes to call everything fun a sin, but it's not fair to call the whole group evil.

Posted by: BarkAtTheMoon Nov 15 2010, 07:52 PM

I never understood how some people have the whole atheist=evil view. Its not like the atheist is coming to your house to murder you. I'd say there are some Christians who are more "evil" but thats another debate :/

Posted by: xires Nov 16 2010, 02:57 PM

Post Deleted

Posted by: bijoukaiba Nov 16 2010, 03:50 PM

Are atheists evil?

I am strongly against homophobia, sexism, pedophilia, and racism.
I occasionally participate in certain events for charity (such as running a 5k for charity, donating food, volunteering, etc.)
While I do like to eat meat, I am against animal cruelty.
I am described as a very loyal friend, and a caring person.
I donate blood.
I am very passionate about doing the right thing and seeking justice.
I want to end world hunger, and support world peace.
I love my family (including pets) and friends very much.
I want to help save the environment, as I find nature very beautiful.
I love the arts, particularly music and writing.
I want to be a pediatric neurologist and help kids overcome problems with their brain. After all, it would probably give my patients great hope to know that their neurologist once had epilepsy herself, but it didn't stop her from going to medical school.
I am clearly a human being like everyone else, capable of human emotions. I can be happy, sad, scared, or angry. I laugh and I cry. I have a brain, I have a heart, and I have a sense of humor.

And I am an atheist.

Posted by: mewkeemyuu Nov 16 2010, 04:02 PM

I'm a Christian, but I don't think atheists are evil. Sure, sometimes I feel like I want to convert them to my religion, but I won't try if they don't want me to. It's just a belief.

Xires, when you're Christian, you don't have to go to church every Sunday. That bothered me a little.

I hate how some people go overboard with religion. Just because people don't believe the same thing as you doesn't mean they're evil. It's not right to be friends with someone for years, not knowing their religion, then finding out they're atheist and immediately ignoring them. I'm very against that.

As for moral stuff, your religion doesn't affect that. You can be Jewish and act evil, or be atheist and be a model of goodness. As I said before, it's just a belief.

Posted by: Elito Nov 16 2010, 04:05 PM

lol, Atheists = evil? No way. But lol, Im Christian and believe in God, so if you ask whether Atheists go to hell, my thoughts are they do, because they refuse the God. So, if you don't believe in him, and in the end he does exists, you go to hell, if in the end he doesn't exists, you don't go anywhere, since then all hell/heaven stuff doesn't exist either. But you can't really ask someone...
I say, let people believe what they want. It's their own will. However I find it very silly when people say they're atheists because they don't believe God could create the world, and that somebody had to create, in fact, him. Anyways, I'm not going to get any deeper in religious debates, because we have other thread for that, and it's rather silly.

Everything you said was so plain immature I had to laugh. Especially the bold part. I said I'm a Christian, however I don't go to church every Sunday. In fact, I almost never go to church. Then, "learning cool things from other religions that most Christians wouldn't take the time to look at because it's 'inferior'". Again, so much lol. We do learn stuff about other religions, so what you just said made no sense. I know very much about every other religion, Egyptian, Arabic, Muslim... Being Christian does not makes you blocked or walled in some kind of way. You are free to do what ever you want, it's just that in the end you may take some consequences, and it's much better and easier for both you and everybody else to do good stuff.

/rant

XD

Posted by: PikaDiety Nov 16 2010, 05:24 PM

I hate when people say others go to hell just for not believing in their god. It's kind of stupid. No offense, but if he's a god of love, why would he send anyone to hell? Especially an amazing, kind, moral person, just because they're an atheist.

Obviously, I don't think atheists are evil. I have atheist friends and Christian friends, and I have atheist enemies and Christian enemies. Although I will admit I have more Christian enemies than atheist ones.>.> That's mainly because they're always telling me to go to hell.

Note: I'm neither Christian nor atheist. I'm pagan. I only believe in a hell for the worst people on earth, like mass murderers who kill in cold blood, etc.

Posted by: Blak99Psy Nov 16 2010, 05:35 PM

I don't think Atheists are evil, and I'm a Christian. I do get a little bothered when people assume all Christians are evil, though. I've met plenty of kind Atheists. They're normal people, too. everyone has their own beliefs, and I don't force mine on others, just like my Atheist friends don't force theirs on me.

Posted by: BarkAtTheMoon Nov 16 2010, 05:37 PM

You just said pretty much what I wanted to say

I do want to add that you can also believe in God in the sense there is a higher power watching over us and not believe that he "created" the world. Theres a name for that belief, but I dont remember what it is.

Posted by: evolutionrex Nov 16 2010, 09:05 PM

I am an atheist. I am one of the biggest atheist around. I've made a few websites and clubs on other forums. I never ever try to change anyone's beliefs however.

Atheist are not evil in anyway. There are a few atheist that I have met, i admit, who call themselves "atheist" but in reality they worship the devil. Even if they worship the devil, it still doesn't make them evil. It's a point of view.

But i have met very few devil worshipers and i can tell you, atheist aren't evil. I am, an atheist and i follow the laws, and i do my part in society. I am very green and try to save the planet. I am part of an anti-drug and anti-bully club at my high school.

there is a stereotype that said atheist are cold, mean, and anti-social; and it's wrong.

Posted by: Doc Worth Nov 16 2010, 09:31 PM

Religion is a choice. Whether a person wants to believe in God or not is their choice. You choice in religion doesn't make you evil. Your actions do. No, Athiest=/=evil.

I am Christian. I am also a Youth Group Leader in my church. But I also have many Athiest friends. They're just normal people who are just as capable as being good or evil as everyone else, their beliefs don't change that.

Posted by: Rich Boy Nov 17 2010, 02:14 AM

I'm an atheist.

I fully support LGBT rights
I fully support inter-culture and inter-faith understanding and acceptance
I frequently donate to charity
I volunteer for shit
I fully support green technology

Am I an evil person? I honestly don't think so. I have my own reasons for being an atheist, but blatantly flaunting your faith or lack of a faith in other people's faces instead of appreciating the person for who they are just makes you look like a jackass.

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 17 2010, 03:20 AM

"God doesn't exist" is what you believe in. Right now, you just posted something that spreads doubt in God. That's no better than Christians spreading their faith in God. Am I right or am I right?

Oh really... The person who was the head of the Human Genome Project was Christian. I think that is cool.

And if I went by your logic. I am right because I am right.

Get out. What type of person are you?

Posted by: FrenzyClinic Nov 17 2010, 03:38 AM

I'm atheist/agnostic. Yes, they're completely different, but I don't care. I gave up on religion due to the sheer fact that my prayers about a better life have long been unanswered. If you want a good and better life, do it yourself. Don't rely on a God.

As for the actual topic, I am not evil and neither are the rest. Though I do act a bit crazy at times, but that's human. There are extremists who believe that God will save them, and harm others to prove it. The only way one will go to Hell, if it exists, is if they harm others and themselves.

The only other atheist/agnostic I've met acted like a regular person. She played games, went for walks, and took care of herself. True it may be one person, but she didn't seem like she was evil. She may have dressed differently, but we aren't judged by the clothes we wear.

1. You're not awesome. You're as equal as the rest of us. Sorry.
2. Being assigned to a religion is not a hassle, nor a chore, nor a burden. To some it may seem so, to others, it's a luxury, and also an act of good intentions.
3. You are not obligated to go to church every Sunday. You are free to go or not go when you want to.
4. I don't even know how to go about answering that next sentence. You make no sense.
5. ALL OTHER RELIGIONS CAN ALSO LEARN ABOUT OTHER RELIGIONS. THEY JUST CHOOSE NOT TO, OR THEY DO SO.
6. Atheism ain't awesome. What's awesome is not using awesome in such a manner.
7. I may not believe in God, but what you said is just pathetic.

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 17 2010, 03:47 AM

I'm not attacking you personally, but there is a distinct difference in the words you just used. Atheist means you do not believe in God. Agnostic means you believe there might be a God, a cosmic being, or whatever.

Do not get those two mixed up because they lead to very different discussions. I do not like how kids these days just throw around vocabulary that they might not 100% understand and yet they use it like they know what they mean.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 17 2010, 04:21 AM

In response to one specific post, I'd like to say that while people need to cut out the whole "atheists are evil" thing, people also need to stop with the "Christians are scientifically/culturally ignorant/have a vendetta against sleeping in on Sunday"...thing. I mean c'mon, making THAT assumption is just as bad as the "atheism = evil" one that this thread is meant to discuss.

Posted by: FrenzyClinic Nov 17 2010, 04:50 AM

I know there's a difference, but I'm actually torn between the two. I want to think something bigger is out there, but I'm just not sure if it's a lie. I will decide eventually, though.

Posted by: xires Nov 17 2010, 02:51 PM

Post Deleted

Posted by: BarkAtTheMoon Nov 17 2010, 04:10 PM

Ok, after reading some more of these posts...just ugh.

First, to whoever said that God will not fix problems or whatever, God is not a genie. He does not grant wishes. If you pray that you lose weight you will not magically wake up one day with the pounds gone. I hate this whole "God did not grant my wish so he does not exist" crap. I think of prayer as a way of communicating with him and telling him what you want, but that doesn't mean its ever going to happen.

@ xires

Ok, I live in the same type of holy rolly area that you live in, so I understand the whole "religion is a chore" thing. However, that still does not mean that every single christian in the world is like that so its unfair to generalize.

Take me for example. I believe that there is a higher power, but I also never go to church (I'd probably burst into flames the second I stepped foot in one), I dont believe in creationism, and I dont believe a whole lot in the bible. I dont believe much of what the church teaches. I am majoring in biology. theres no rule stating that you are not allowed to accept science. In fact, I DO Look at things scientifically. Most of the hatred of evolution comes from not understanding it. Charles Darwin was a Christian himself and his father was a preacher. However, thats all I'm going to say on THAT matter

Posted by: Yumie Nov 17 2010, 05:33 PM

I don't think there is a Christian church, unless you want to go back a couple thousand of years. There are so many divinities of Christianity, and they all have contrasting views branched off from the idea that Jesus was the son of god. Though one of the many Christian Churches may have held evolution as untrue, others probably accepted it easily.

Which is kind of the whole beauty of it. Chances are, there is a belief out there that you can truly follow and believe. The belief of Atheism is NOT evil any more than the belief of Buddhism, Christianity, Muslim, Hinduism (etc.) is. But, there are people who can interpret that philosophy in an evil way. Any individual could decide that all other religions are wrong (and most of the big religions have had extreme sects, as well as Atheism) and go on a mass killing spree. That is evil, as there is no way to sugarcoat genocide on any level.

However, walking around my school, I have never met anyone who held such extreme views, which includes all of those beliefs I listed before. They are all pretty loving individuals, despite how there are probably hundreds of different interpretations of beliefs in the building.

Posted by: BarkAtTheMoon Nov 17 2010, 06:13 PM

Be grateful for that and never move to Americas bible belt I live in that region and trust me, thats where all the nuts are located. If anyone was to even MENTION evolution everyone would start to freak out. I one time heard someone say you need to be atheist to be a scientist which should demonstrate how crazy these people are that they cannot put aside their religious beliefs to even take the time to learn about science.

I wonder how many times I've contradicted myself in this thread

Posted by: xires Nov 17 2010, 06:52 PM

sorry, I was just getting kinda . I should go back and delete that post so that It won't cause any more trouble. I think I'll do that now. Probably won't how up on these kind of discussions anymore though.~ ~

Posted by: Reyo Nov 17 2010, 08:37 PM

That's...interesting...

*contemplates moving to bible belt just for the lulz*

Posted by: BarkAtTheMoon Nov 17 2010, 09:45 PM

I think it was just how you worded what you wanted to say made it sound kind of obnoxious. Looking back, I do understand what you were getting at and I do know all too well about that type of uber christian

Posted by: TehHuntress Nov 17 2010, 09:55 PM

Holy crap you're just like me!
I, really, don't have a religion. I am not an atheist, and I do believe in God. But, however, I do not believe atheists are evil.
They have they're own religion, and that's cool with me. Just as long as they don't force me to become an athiest too. But they are not evil.

Posted by: FrenzyClinic Nov 17 2010, 11:52 PM

Well, when you're a kid, you tend to believe the dumbest of things. Such of these includes that God does exist and he does grant wishes/miracles. When I grew up, I realized I was chasing a star too high. So not only did I give up based on that, but logic took over. If God exists, where's the proof? He may as well be the longest living hoax known to man.

Prayer is a way of letting yourself go deep into thought and say things you can't bring yourself to say to someone else, even a trusted friend or relative. It doesn't matter if it works or not, it's just a way to get those demons out of your chest and skeletons out of the closet.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 18 2010, 03:11 AM

Not sure how it is for others, but that comment always makes me rage a little inside. It just...assumes too much about the nature of a "God".

The second paragraph, however, I agree with completely. You know how some people write in their diaries about the days events? That's kind of like prayer, only prayer has become more of a stereotypical "Ask for free shit and start disbelieving when you don't get said free shit" activity. I remember going to a church group...thing where adult leaders translate the Christian faith to teenagers, and I remember one of them said that just sitting there and thinking to yourself is prayer, since a sentient God wold be able to "hear" it. I do that whole "just sitting there and thinking to yourself" thing every night before bed, and what I think about ranges from hope for the future, current desires, and recalling how awesome the day went.

To me, that says prayer is more therapy than it is a direct line to the "give you whatever you want" guy. I'd rather not take that away just because I was a greedy kid who didn't get the space rocket he asked for during prayer.

Posted by: Ruby Spritz Nov 18 2010, 06:44 AM

Some of these posts make a lot of assumptions about religious people that I find a bit funny, mainly:

1.Not all religious people try to convert others or think people are going to hell for not believing in their religion.
--In Judaism, conversion is typically discouraged and proselytizing doesn't happen. Jews respect the beliefs of others, even if they think they are wrong because each person has the right to their own beliefs. The fact that someone else is not Jewish does not affect the life of someone who is so why make a big deal out of it?
Also, Jews don't believe in a hell. God didn't make people to punish them.


2.Christians are frequently lumped together when the beliefs of different branches contrast greatly.
--Please do a little research on the different types of Christianity before you describe what a "Christian" believes. For example, the Vatican allows Catholics to believe in evolution as long as you believe that he created humans in his own image and allows use of medical science to the degree where another human being is not being harmed to save another (i.e. abortion). Some Christian branches do not accept evolution or even allow the use of medicine such as vaccinations. Catholics are required to attend their mass every Sunday, while it is just heartily encouraged in other sects. The differences are vast, but since creationism vs evolution, science, and church were already mentioned in this thread, I chose those examples.

Posted by: BarkAtTheMoon Nov 18 2010, 10:39 AM

Eh, I am far from a religious person. I was raised catholic, but I haven't been to church in over 10 years. I would say I have more of a Deist view (God created earth, then left us to fend for ourselves basically). Maybe God exists, maybe he doesnt. Maybe Christians are the ones who are wrong. Theres no way of knowing until we die. I'd like to think there is a God that you can turn to as you said in the second paragraph (Which is also what I said just in a different way).

Posted by: Numbuh 893 Nov 18 2010, 11:34 PM

Are atheists evil?

Yes, but no more than anyone in any other religion.

Are atheists good?

Yes, but no more than anyone in any other religion.

Posted by: Vincent Lance Nov 18 2010, 11:43 PM

Atheists are not evil. However, the main reason SOME (as in, NOT ALL) people have problems with SOME (as in NOT ALL) Atheists is because they are too uncaring or insensitive to the big picture. They believe they will die, and their bodies will rot, and they will have no afterlife or physical presence thereafter.

Their beef with Atheists is this: have they ever considered what would happen if they turned out to be wrong about what happens when they die? Could they accept the consequences?

You could say no, or simply not care, because you know you're right. And you could be, I'm not here to make that assumption. You may say yes, though, and then you have to consider the alternative. Which is, what?

Hell, perhaps?

Who knows?

Atheists don't exist. The definition of the word 'atheist' is 'someone who believes there is no 'god' or spiritual world. This, by definition, means one of two things: either, you're not atheist, and are actually agnostic, because you aren't SURE if there's a 'god', OR, you are sure there is no 'god,' and you become as ignorant as you say Christians are.

Again, not here to say who's right. Just making a valid point. You could be wrong. Then what?

Posted by: Ruby Spritz Nov 19 2010, 01:15 AM

Just pointing out that Christians aren't the only ones who believe in the monotheistic God, and certainly not the only ones who believe in one form or another of God or gods.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 19 2010, 01:31 AM

Well yeah, though what that has to do with the certainty that some atheists have in the existence of a God I don't know.

Posted by: Ruby Spritz Nov 19 2010, 01:49 AM

What I'm saying is that I'm sick of the God debate being mostly Christians vs Atheists and other faiths getting ignored. Jews and Muslims believe in the same idea of God Christians do. (I use the word "idea" referring to who Christians dub as God "the father" in their trinity since Jews and Muslims only believe the singular deity.) And tons of other people believe in a God or gods or something.

Lots of people have a religion and I'm tired of Atheists using mostly anti-Christian arguments to back up their point of view when there are so many other faiths that in my personal opinion make more sense than Christianity. (I'm NOT Christians for believing what they believe here. I'm just saying what works for me in this case.)

Posted by: Reyo Nov 19 2010, 02:05 AM

Then it sounds like you have a beef with the stereotype of who debates with religion, and not whether or not atheists are just as ignorant as the religious people they make fun of. You have a point, it's just...not really what we're talking about right now.

Posted by: Ruby Spritz Nov 19 2010, 03:20 AM

I think the idea of leaving out the other major religions while only focusing on one is ignorant. There are many viewpoints on God and religion I feel people should consider before forming educated and "non-ignorant" opinions.

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 19 2010, 04:01 AM

That's what I basically wrote in the beginning.

God or not. Atheists don't believe in a god. Funny thing. The more you try to reject the existence of a god, the more you feel like you acknowledge there is one. At least that's how it feels usually when people are brought up in a religious environment.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 19 2010, 11:50 AM

He was trying to prove a point with an example, which happened to be "atheists vs Christians". Not anything inherently ignorant in that at all. It'd be like saying "Dogs chase cats" and someone else saying "That's ignorant, there are other animals that chase other animals." Yes...there are, but the "who vs. who" aspect of the example used isn't the focus of the conversation, or at least it's not meant to be.

Posted by: Rich Boy Nov 19 2010, 01:58 PM

I'm an atheist, got my own reasons for being one. I'd like to consider myself a pretty reasonable and good natured person, I donate more money to charity then I honestly should, and I have absolutely no forbearing hatred towards anyone based solely on their belief in a particular slice if a particular faith.

In terms of faith/religion in general, unless directly asked or provoked, thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

Posted by: Podz Nov 19 2010, 07:44 PM

Oh em gee! Its numbuh *offtopicnesscompleted*

Atheists aren't evil. Why would they? People aren't evil because of their religion. Infact evil is a bit of an overstatement. These people have feelings you know! Be nice (:
Im atheist, well not really. I believe in something. I believe in an afterlife, just not 'heaven'. There is really no true Atheist, or maybe only 01.012% (go me for made up numbers!) of the claimed 'atheists' are actually completely atheist.

ATHEISTS ROCK. End.

Posted by: CrowFeather Nov 20 2010, 01:43 AM

I disagree.
Everyone is evil inside, it doesn't matter what your religious status is.

Posted by: Ivysaur Nov 21 2010, 02:32 AM

Atheist here.

"Atheism isn't real"? Really?

I don't know about other atheists, but I reject the existence of a Deity simply because I don't feel anything when it comes to relating to religion. My mother is agnostic; my father is Jewish. I've been to Church a few times... nothing. I've tried praying... nothing. I'm a big believer in cold, hard facts. I've seen no liable proof firmly planting the possibility of there being a higher being. Key word being firmly.

Think about this:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then He is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
-Epicurus

God is in Himself a paradox; omnipotent means "all-powerful", but He cannot Himself create a wall that He cannot tear down or jump over.

And besides, Greek mythology has been cast aside as simply false and impossible, and yet modern religions haven't? To me that's kind of stupid, because they both make equally as much sense; Greek mythology made sense in Ancient Greece, modern religion makes sense now (to a lot of people, at least; not the entire human race). Who's to say that religions such as Christianity and all the religions that sprouted from it will not be cast aside in the future, like Greek mythology was?

It's late here. This post probably won't make much sense so I'll try to fix it up and add some more in the morning.

Posted by: Draikette Nov 21 2010, 02:51 AM

It's not what you do or do not believe in that makes one good or bad.
If you partake in any religion, it is NOT an "obligation" to be "good."
Same goes for atheism. It's not an obligation to be evil.
Evil is as evil does.
Good is as good does.
You don't need to be Christian/Buddhist/Jew/etc in order to seek out and do good deeds.
It's all in the power of CHOICE. Not fate. Not acquirement of birth.
It's not piety. It's not "saving" others by converting them.
It's having the patience and understanding of the people around you.

Posted by: CrowFeather Nov 21 2010, 05:34 AM

Can you prove that everyone is truly good?

Posted by: Yumie Nov 21 2010, 09:41 AM

Lol, I lve in the USA, but im guessing that thats not what you mean by Americas. But yeah, I was lucky enough to not be exposed to that kind of intolerance yet. Narrow- mindedness is easy to take on, but at least they think they are doing the right thing. And, if any of those individuals you were thinking of ever move outside the bible belt, they may get a nice taste of reality and meet some pleasant people of other beliefs. *attempted positive spin*



I dont think it is necessarily saying that everyone is necessarily good, just that not everyone is not necessarily evil. I don't think I'm evil, as I do make attempts to help others as well as the environment (which any religion/belief could do). Though, I am not completely good, as I have done selfish things and have a bad habit for hogging large amounts of candy. But, hogging candy isn't exactly evil. It's not like I'm thinking "Oh! Now those kids in Africa won't be happy, as I have all of their candy!" Other people do good things as well: its not like they have this flawless facade they are able to put on and trick anyone.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 21 2010, 03:09 PM

I don't like this little snippet either for the exact same reason. It assumes that God HAS to be this magical sky genie that has an obligation to make everyone's life perfect, or else he doesn't exist. What people forget, however, is that if an all knowing, all doing god exists, he doesn't need to ground himself to the human perception of him. I mean hell, most people don't even ground themselves to the perceptions of those who are higher than they are on the social totem poll.

He's God, why should he give a shit what you think of him? If he isn't good, then why should he exist? Because you don't dictate reality. He's probably a mixture of the 2nd and the 3rd one on your list, and I say both because he probably does stop a lot of evil from happening, but you don't notice it, yet evil still exists since he's probably wise enough to realize that some evil is necessary. For example, a death in the family brings the rest of the family closer together. A near death experience brings you closer to your humanity and allows o to live your life more.

Even the holocaust provided some good in that it allowed humanity as a whole to look at an instance of human nature at it's darkest hour. Hell, World War II as a whole provided benefit. I'm an example of that. My grandfather would have stopped with my Dad's older brother had he not fought in the war, came home, and had my Dad, who then had me. It's where the baby boomers came from.

Now, why did I write a near block of text on that? Because I want people you, as well as everyone else, to realize that this perception of God being this wish granting charity machine, or else he doesn't exist, is fucking ridiculous.

Also, someone isn't automatically malevolent just because they're able to help, but don't. I'm willing to bet all of us have embodied the type of person who can help, but doesn't, in at least one point of or lives. It's as simple as seeing a homeless person on the street asking for some money, yet not giving the poor bastard our last dollar. Does that automatically make you an evil person? And no, I'm not asking you to admit to not giving money to the homeless, because I know you'll just say some "I give money to EVERY homeless person I see" bullshit to try and ruin the example. Everyone, for some reason, feels obligated to say that. All I want you to do is think about it.

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 21 2010, 04:15 PM

Thank you.

God is there as this mediator. This "evil" and "good" are two sides of the same coin. Without evil, you do not know what is good. Without good, you do not know what is evil.

Our perception of God is false. We don't know God because he is almighty. We can't perceive him because he is so grand. If you think you know God, you don't. Don't compare yourself to an entity that knows all and sees all.

People, get out heads out the sand.

Posted by: Vincent Lance Nov 21 2010, 07:11 PM

However, it does say in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16) that "All Scripture is inspired by the word of God (in other words, God breathed, or written by God-inspired men)." We can learn about God's nature by actually reading the book. Who knew.

What people don't seem to understand it that God created the world perfect. Humans, and animals, were created perfect, vegetarians by nature. Only after Satan, in the guise of a serpent, tempted Eve into eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did sin first become real. Before then, no one at meat, killed, or knew what was right and wrong; only what God wanted. It was literally perfect.

Sin exists because man ruined what God created perfect. As in, it's our fault that sin exists. God did not create it. After man sinned, they could no longer be in God's presence. They can't physically talk to, see, or hear God anymore. All we can do is pray, because God can hear us; we just can hear his reply, because we are sinful.

God sending his perfect son, born to a virgin, was the only way to create reconciliation. All you have to do is believe Jesus died to save you. It's a free gift.

And honestly? If that's a sure-fire way to avoid hell, if it exists, why wouldn't you accept that gift? Pascal's Wager. I'd rather be right about heaven than wrong about hell.

I'm just sayin'.

Posted by: LiteSpeed Nov 21 2010, 07:38 PM

But how can we be so sure that that was the case back then? There was no paper to write it down on if they didn't kill, as trees are alive, and supposedly there was only Adam and Eve. How did it get passed on then? And if it did happen to, like all messages transmitted verbally, it would get altered by mishearings and other factors. For all we know, it could be a tale made up by someone. There's no actual proof as of yet that can decide if a deity exists or not, but there's a lot more proof going with atheists than against.

Also, if humans were supposed to be perfect, then wouldn't we have the knowledge and sense of wrong and right to avoid sins overall?

Posted by: PikaDiety Nov 21 2010, 10:29 PM

That's why I'm not Christian. I hate the reward system. It makes God look like a big time company that's always doing those buy one, get one free things. "Believe in me or burn for eternity!" Seriously? If that's how God is, I'd rather be an atheist. (Even though I'm pagan.xD) If the only way to get to heaven is believe in god, then he isn't a loving god. Because someone can be an atheist and a wonderful person. But because of the fact the fact that they don't believe in god, they'll go to hell? While someone can be a horrible, cruel, heartless person and go to heaven just because they believe in god? I wouldn't want a god like that.

(http://isavedmegaton.tumblr.com/post/1481229229/in-response-to-the-concept-that-morality-and-god) I thought that was relevant to what I was saying.

Also, I don't think the Bible is a reliable source at all. Mainly because it was written by men, no matter how you spin it. God never actually wrote the Bible. He never came down to earth to write the Bible. Even if he did, it's been translated so many times it's lost it's original perfect meaning. And since men are flawed and no man is perfect, you can't say the Bible is perfect, because it was written by men.
And I could bring up all of it's contradictions, but I need to go to bed, and I don't want to get the link at the moment.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 21 2010, 11:04 PM

As much as it wold suck for that type of God to exist, if he does exist in that light, then he exists. You can't just say "Oh, he acts like that? I'll just act like he's not there." It's not like it'll make him go away just because you choose not to believe in him. That's just like a creationist plugging their fingers in their ears saying "LALA CAN'T HEAR YOU" when the topic of evolution pops up. You can say "I'd rather not worship him", but choosing to become atheist just because he doesn't act the way you think he should is improper.

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 21 2010, 11:24 PM

Too bad we aren't perfect. That's why God is there to guide us. Only God is perfect. To acknowledge that humans are perfect is ignorant. We wouldn't have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge if we were perfect. Yet, we would not know that things are good and bad. So was eating from the Tree good or bad? A perfect being would know this answer. But only God would know. He sent us away from the tree for us to learn that we made a choice that can not be taken back. Again, this situation is the whole "two sides of the same coin" argument.



So people should believe in a religion because of the reward system. Yes, of course! That is exactly why people believe in Christianity.

"So if I believe in God, I get sent to heaven."
"So if he does not exist, there is a 50/50 chance that I will go to heaven"

"I do not believe in God."
"There is no way I can go to heaven."

This idea is flawed on the base principles.

Religion isn't about all the rewards a person can reap, it is about faith in God that he will be a guidance. Rewards are just a icing on the cake. God knows all and sees all, he would know that a person just believes in the rewards and not God himself. People that places these "safe" bets on God...

Get your head out of the sand. Again, God isn't just a being that churns out rewards. So if you do not like the rewards, you do not believe in the religion. What the hell? Religion is far more complex than your little one-sided thought process. Religion is a belief system that provides hope.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 22 2010, 12:03 AM

What of the belief system where I keep the possibility in mind...because he just might exist?

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 22 2010, 12:32 AM

I thought we were talking about Atheists not Agnostics.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 22 2010, 12:33 AM

We are, but it seems like a lot of the comments have become an attempt to convert people to other religions. Shame that I've had to do it myself to try and respond to the other people who are doing it.

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 22 2010, 12:54 AM

An attempt to convert... That's funny. The guilt is placed on both sides.

Posted by: CrowFeather Nov 22 2010, 05:52 AM

Well, how would you two describe someone as being 'evil' or 'bad'?

Posted by: Vincent Lance Nov 22 2010, 10:02 AM

In response to LiteSpeed, Genesis, the book detailing the 2-3000 years before Moses, was not the first book written. It's just the first book in chronological order. Job was the first written. So, obviously, Adam and Eve didn't write Genesis, because their were dead. God inspired Moses to write the first five books of the Bible, or so we believe. I can argue the Bible is a reliable source, because it was written by God-inspired men; I picture God in a corner narrating what to write down to some scholar.


Also, did you know they found the oldest Bible in existence? They compared the text to a 2009 Bible. 99.9% accurate.

Posted by: BarkAtTheMoon Nov 22 2010, 11:40 AM

They may have been God-inspired men, but they were still human. And humans still tend to either "add" things or exaggerate. I'm not saying everything in the bible is false, I'm just saying that its human nature to exaggerate things.

But thats just me. I respect your opinion

I do believe the accuracy thing though. The bible is such a sacred book that every person who wrote it and translated it would make sure that it stayed accurate.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 22 2010, 11:44 AM

You saying that brings my hope for humanity back into existence.



There's one big problem with the bible, though. Either it's 100% accurate to the oldest bible in existence, and we're basing our morals on a society that was scientifically and morally ignorant (as in women were less than dirt), or it isn't a recollection of that time period, in which case it isn't an accurate representation of the word of God. I have no quarrel with the Bible as a literary source, but when it comes to scientific understanding, moral values, and historical recollection...that's when it starts to fade. It's also one of the reasons no one brings up the bible anymore in the Evolution v God thread.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 22 2010, 11:49 AM

doublepostfail

Posted by: CrowFeather Nov 22 2010, 04:00 PM

That's a fair point, but what you say to a person breaking the law? Speeding for example. It's fine if you speed a couple of times by accident, but what if a person has been speeding on purpose, putting lives at risk, for simply getting to a destination quicker?

Posted by: CrowFeather Nov 22 2010, 04:25 PM

Good, but would you also say that anyone who breaks the law is evil?

Posted by: PikaDiety Nov 22 2010, 04:37 PM

Just so the people responding to me know: I do have faith. I have very strong faith in my gods. This is a debate about atheists, but is turning in to one about the Christian God. So I thought I should put in my opinion.

I believe in a heaven, and I believe I'm going to that heaven. But I don't think that people who believe differently are going to hell. That's honestly stupid. I don't choose to not believe in it because I don't like it, I choose to not believe it because I think the entire idea behind it is false. So, it really isn't a choice. I think it's false, therefore I don't believe. I don't choose to believe the moon isn't made of cheese, I know it isn't.

Posted by: Lord Raven Nov 22 2010, 04:55 PM

i'm more of an apathetic than an atheist, because i honestly don't care about religion lol, but i guess that still makes me an atheist so..

Posted by: Kira Wolf Nov 22 2010, 06:18 PM

Honestly, in my opinion I have nothing against atheists, that is if they have nothing against me. I am a christian so...yeah. If a atheist has sometihng against me, I have something against me.
Pretty simple and not compelx, really. :/

Posted by: CrowFeather Nov 23 2010, 02:14 AM

But what about the convicts in London, 1800's. who simply stole bread to feed their families? They did it for a good cause, but broke the law doing so. They had committed a crime.

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 23 2010, 03:02 AM

So are you for "Atheism is evil" or "Atheism is not evil?" I'm at a loss here.

Stop asking stupid questions. Debate, don't ask a stream of useless questions that again do not really contribute to a side. Get something more original.

And you just now implied that religion is a crime or is evil. Please explain.

Posted by: CrowFeather Nov 23 2010, 04:20 AM

What I'm trying to do, is getting a final definition of the word. And they're not stupid questions, it's called using logic to find an answer.

And I'm not implying that religion is evil, I'm proving a point that everyone in general is.
And what part did I, exactly?

Posted by: Ruby Spritz Nov 23 2010, 06:05 AM

Thank you. This is the point I was trying to make earlier.

@Reyo, this is what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to add the the conversation going on at that time but merely commenting that several arguments didn't make sense because they were based on only one religion.

Example: On page 3, I saw people who were rejecting God because of a "reward" system. That's dumb, because not all religions have such things. As I said in another post, in Judaism, there is no hell. You don't do the right thing on fear of punishment or hope of reward; you do the right thing because it's your responsibility.

To anyone who doesn't like the "reward system," what do you make of that?



@CrowFeather: You used the examples of speeding and stealing to feed your family to make your point.

But what if the speeder was an ambulance trying to get to a hospital quickly? I know of a case from about a year ago where a woman was killed in an accident by a speeding ambulance. I can try to find the citation if you want. Also, as someone who takes an interstate highway to get to school and back 5 days a week, I speed frequently. However, the only time I've ever caused an accident (no one was hurt, btw) I was going under the speed limit.

In the case of someone stealing food to feed their family: what if the person who was stolen from was no longer able to feed their family?

The adverse effects that could result in these cases are absolutely not intended so how exactly does breaking the law prove that people are inherently evil?

Posted by: Reyo Nov 23 2010, 12:52 PM

And as I said before, it sounds like your quarrel is with the stereotype of atheists v Christians which, to be honest, wasn't really supposed to be the main focus of the thread. I don't like that it's turned into yet another "Let's ell at each other about religion" thread, but adding "Let's ell at EVERYONE, not just one group" to the mix doesn't help. I'd rather there be no yelling.



Evil is an abstract term that changes from generation to generation based on the social evolution of man. If you want the definition of evil, you look at the majority at one point in time. If you want the shift of evil, you look at the majority as it changes from generation to generation. There is no definition for "evil" anymore than there's a definition for "love". It's a human emotion that varies from person to person, generation to generation.

There is your final definition.

Posted by: Luneon Nov 23 2010, 01:21 PM

i'm an Atheist and i'm not "evil" :|

since when do people think we're evil?!!!?????
:c

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 23 2010, 02:27 PM

When Atheists tried to argue against the Bible.

Stop quoting so much. I don't want to read what is before -three posts ago-. I obviously can't care less about what is posted before. Don't quote so much. Make a tl;dr.

Posted by: LiteSpeed Nov 23 2010, 02:53 PM

So Fancy, what you're saying is that we become evil when we argue against your beliefs, yet when you guys argue against the beliefs of Atheists it's perfectly fine and you're good? Doesn't that seem sort of stubborn?

Posted by: Luneon Nov 23 2010, 02:56 PM

:|

but what's wrong with not believing in God?
i don't get this.. you guys are allowed to say we're evil and if we say you are.. it's against idontevenknowwhat and almost a crime :|

Posted by: Reyo Nov 23 2010, 03:50 PM

I don't know about Fancy, but what annoys the piss out of me is when atheists decide to ignore when I say "I don't respect the Bible as a credible source of science or moral values." and quote the damn thing further.

Yes, I know how funny it is that the bible tells us to stone queers to death and treat women like slaves. What I find more fascinating is why you're telling me this AGAIN as if it'll magically turn me into an atheist.

And no, I know that not all of them are like that, but damn it all the ones who do seem to do it the loudest.



Yeah, I believe this entire thread has shown that no...that does not happen...does not happen at all.

Posted by: Luneon Nov 23 2010, 03:59 PM

i'm not even gonna try to turn you or anyone else into an atheist.
i just wanna know why people say we're evil.
i didn't do anything, the people here (gpx+/gts+) don't hate me, so give me 10 GOOD reasons why Atheists (including myself) are evil :|
i'm a very curious person...

Posted by: Reyo Nov 23 2010, 04:17 PM

Yeeeeaaaaaah you're not getting it.

I don't give a shit if you believe in god or not, so I don't particularly care about your homework assignment. No one in this thread calls atheists evil (or if one did I have no idea how they got passed the rest of us without a long winded debate), so asking any of s why atheists are evil is like asking a PETA member what they think of bacon. Not only don't they know, but chances are they're going to facepalm at you for asking (then again...it's PETA. God knows what they'd do).

Posted by: Luneon Nov 23 2010, 05:26 PM

do you really think i'm replying because of a homework assignment..???!??? :|

and: what. the. ???!??? is PETA :|

Posted by: Reyo Nov 23 2010, 07:38 PM

wow...right over your head.

Posted by: Tequila Mockingbird Nov 23 2010, 08:21 PM

Wow...you're a jerk :l

Seriously, I've seen you around the forums..can you say /anything/ without coming along as an arsehole.

To keep on topic, I'm agnostic. I don't care what others think...I for one, know atheists aren't evil...unless they're mass murderers...of course, a religious person could be a mass murderer as well.

All in all: Are Atheists evil? Is a stupid question. :T

Posted by: Tikk Tokk Tibenoch Nov 23 2010, 08:48 PM

I don't see how Reyo is being a jerk. He explained his side and Luneon ignored him. Reyo doesn't believe Atheists are evil, Luneon is just taking it in the wrong text. Luneon is asking for 10 reason why they're evil to someone who doesn't believe they're evil.

Posted by: jhunter Nov 23 2010, 10:05 PM

This sounds more like an emotional arguement than a debate, which isn't strange considering someone's beliefs and morals are on question here.

Just so I'm on topic: I'm an atheist. I don't think I'm evil. People I know don't think I'm evil.

I may be wrong about my views on life though, and I would be fine if I was wrong (not if God was a MixMence though). I don't think I'm going to burn in hell for having a different opinion than other people, atleast I hope so.

I'm not here to flame other people, so I'd kind of like it if you didn't flame me, religion is supposed to be something to bring people together peacefuly, not argue about.

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 24 2010, 01:14 AM

I was just saying, make a tl;dr. I don't want to read a post that has everything up there when you simply make a one sentence post. It messes with the eyes. And because I am amazing like that, I don't really need to kill my eyes reading over a wall of text that ends with a small question.

My main points are:
- If you see my first post, that's what I mean.
- I don't want to deal with all your Atheist comments when all of them don't acknowledge God as an argument.

What I am reading so far is:
"God doesn't exist therefore I don't believe your argument that God is real."

This is about how Atheists are evil or not.

What I can argue is that Atheists are evil because they are the ones that defile the name of God - they are the ones that kill God. With in the introduction of the Industrial Revolution, science becomes the primary believe. Originally for a thousand years or so, people believed in God. It is God's will that things are created.

To go against God is to be evil. Atheists spread doubt in God converting believers into doubters. They have no faith. Without the support of believers God is essentially killed because no one believes in this entity. It is us the people that give meaning to God and it is the Atheists that act against the will of God.

Posted by: CrowFeather Nov 24 2010, 02:46 AM

Well excuse me, if my posting here is bothering you. I do not parade around saying "God doesn't exist". Yes, I am an athiest, and yes, I do respect what people's beliefs are. In fact, quite a few of my friends are religious, yet I don't throw it in their face that their beliefs false.
What I'm trying to get across, is that everyone has at least a tiny bit of evil, or if you don't like that word, 'bad' in them. My proof? History. In the past, it was Christians who murdered hundreds of people in the name of God. Don't we consider people who murder are criminals? Therefore, they are evil. Athiests commit serious crimes, too. So they're evil too.

What is it you have against me? What have I ever done to you?

Posted by: Reyo Nov 24 2010, 03:54 AM

Sorry if I come off as a jerk. I try not to be, but sometimes when I'm peeved I tend to let a little smart-assery squeak by.

I know that particular comment was because I commented on Luneon asking me to start naming off reason why I believe in something I don't believe in, which was what probably peeved me initially, and he commented back with something that suggested he didn't understand what I was saying.

Posted by: Luneon Nov 24 2010, 10:07 AM

I agree.


Btw, I'm a girl :|

Posted by: Yumie Nov 24 2010, 11:00 AM

I can agree that everyone has some evil inside of them, though I still think some people have enough good inside to drown it out.

I may be wrong about this, but I do believe that the concept of good/evil is strongly influenced than none other than religion. In some ways, people didn't consider stealing the bread "evil" until their religion told them it was wrong and evil. Though many religions probably did this (and still do so today), the one that comes the mind the most is Zoroastrianism. Basically, it is this ancient Persian religion believing that all good comes from one entity, and all evil comes from another entity. These two entities are constantly in conflict. The evil would be trying to destroy the good entity, and took the form of material goods to tempt the humans. I am no expert on this religion, so don't necessarily take my word for it.

The point that I was trying to make (though I probably completely missed it) that evil is all in your opinion. The Zoroastrians had one idea of it, and we probably have something completely different. There are people who believe that the Western World is evil, when I would profusely argue the majority of us are quite good

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 24 2010, 01:28 PM

I am disappoint.

I just chose the longest stream of words. So happens the longest stream of posts has a question at the end. I don't have anything against you - I'm debating. And again, if I misplace the "your" treat that as a general thing that applies to everyone. If you think I'm hating, that's funny.





What is happening is that one side argues that religious people are evil, the other, everyone is evil.

So where is this debate? Where is the "atheists are not evil?" Right now, everyone/some people are evil, ergo (some)Atheists are evil.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 24 2010, 01:44 PM

I also make the sweeping generalization that everyone is a dude since there are no girls on the internet.



j/k

But yeah, I just make that assumption to make it easier on myself.

Posted by: Luneon Nov 24 2010, 01:52 PM

Everyone's evil and good at the same time :|

Atheists AND Christians.
MY opinion: It's actually very immature to say: "Atheists are evil because they don't believe in our God". (I DO respect different opinions btw.)
Another immature thing: Saying "Christians are evil because some of them dislike Atheists".

Posted by: Luneon Nov 24 2010, 04:03 PM

i mean people in general.. because there are "bad" people :|
people who kill other human beings just for fun..

and you're not rude.. i guess i'm just too young to discuss stuff like this, i think :|

Posted by: FancyGranola Nov 26 2010, 03:10 AM

Why are you apologizing? Everyone is jelly.

Posted by: Reyo Nov 28 2010, 03:17 PM

If I don't apolagize, I'll get hate filled messages from the mods about how less of a person I am, and then I'll have to think of some BS response to send to THEM

love you mods

Posted by: Tokyo Oranges Nov 30 2010, 03:53 PM

I don't follow any particular organized religion, and consider myself agnostic, People should be allowed to believe what they wish to believe. Live and let live ^^

Posted by: bijoukaiba Dec 2 2010, 11:57 AM

In all honesty, in really doesn't matter what beliefs a person has - there's some good and evil in all of us, just in varying levels.

If you think about it, we are all technically atheists at birth.

Posted by: FancyGranola Dec 5 2010, 04:19 AM

> Implying Atheists should stick to being pure as they were when they were born.

inb4butthurt.

No I disagree. Babies do not necessarily have a choice. You just imposed a belief on a baby - Atheism. That could also apply to religions. A baby could easily be designated a religion when it is born.

inb4:parents that give a choice of religion

Well, they impose a belief that a baby is allowed to choose a religion. It is a belief nonetheless.

But this entire post has nothing to do with Atheists being evil. I'm just setting the point straight because people immediately think that Atheism is not a belief when it is. You believe there is no God.

We live in an era where Science is our belief. Good job Industrial Revolution! A belief is nothing more than a belief it carries the same magnitude of significance as religion.

People immediately think Atheism < Religion because of Science. That's not the case at all.

Posted by: Tatzelwyrm Dec 5 2010, 04:34 PM

I personally do not see the point of this thread. No matter what anyone says, it inevitably dwindles down into a debate on religion and the lack of it, which it already has.

And in the end, what does it matter? There are good people and there are bad people. Anything else is simply a label denoting specific groups. There are good and evil atheists, just as there are good and evil theists. You will encounter those on each side that are more vocal about their thoughts and beliefs than others, and I find it interesting that people have not really commented about this. I've seen something about atheists trying to convert others, but nothing about theists doing the same. My point is simply that both sides do things the other dislikes, so attributing something to one or the other just boggles me.





Edit;

RE: Atheists vs Christians

This is likely because Christianity is more or less the the dominant religion in the US. But, I'm not going to make assumptions.

Posted by: Dragonairz Dec 5 2010, 05:00 PM

Atheist aren't bad people :/
enough said.

Posted by: FancyGranola Dec 6 2010, 02:04 AM

Posted by: Painted Fox Dec 6 2010, 02:11 AM

I used to have an atheist named Luca in my class in middle school, he always used to make up these theories in math class that never were true, but he got an a in math. More to the point his only quirk was that he was naieve and clueless. he was not evil in the sense of the word but he did say some things that people misinterpreted, but my class did not care.. Atheists are not evil, but just believe, that god/gods do not exist. I am an Atheist myself, I give money to help save the enviroment, I take good care of my cats, I am nice to my baby half-brother, I get A's, and I do not try to make other people not believe in god/gods. Atheists are normal people, but do not believe in god/gods... just my view.

Posted by: rileyup Jan 2 2011, 09:49 AM

i am a christan but i tolorate any religion were all people on the inside i stick to my own beliefs i dont care what religion my friends are.

Posted by: bijoukaiba Jan 3 2011, 12:21 PM

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

Babies and very small children have no concept of God. They are taught these things by their parents. A baby is not born and suddenly tells their parents the basic storyline of the Bible on their own at the age of 2-3.

The child merely knows their parents and the immediate world around them. They don't know about God until they're about 5-6 years old. That's how old I was when my parents started introducing me to Christianity.

I almost want to run an experiment on small children, regardless of religion, that asks them where they think the world came from before their parents impose their beliefs on them - be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Atheism, whatever.

Yes, I would agree that atheism is a belief - it's just not a religion. The comparison is often made that "Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color".

Tatzelwyrm summed it up nicely. There will be good Christians. There will be good atheists. There will be bad Christians. There will be bad atheists. There will be good and bad people for every other religion.

Posted by: jhunter Jan 12 2011, 12:26 AM

Adding on to the post above mine, if you were born and never taught of any sort of religion, you'd either not think of it, or create your own sort of religion, and believe that it is correct.

Religious debates are just a matter of thinks that they are more right.



But yeah, an atheist can be just as good or evil as a christian, jew, muslim, scientologist, whatever. If you are going to asume that someone is evil just because they do not agree with you over something so stupid.
I want someone who actually thinks people are evil/ good based on religion to post here though... I would like to see what they have to say.

Posted by: Tatzelwyrm Jan 15 2011, 02:15 AM

@FancyGranola; Personally, I would say that I don't necessarily "believe" there is no God, I simply don't see enough evidence that one exists. As the sixth spectrum Dawkins lists in The God Delusion, "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there." This is where I stand in atheism. Of course, theists will still call that "a belief that he doesn't exist," but whatever. The evidence simply isn't there at this point, not in my eyes.


@bijoukaiba; Can't say I've heard that. Only the "If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby" one.



Also, in regards to babies. A child born into a religious family is not born an atheist. They are born into their parent's religious beliefs, and it's probable that they will grow up with that religion imposed on them. A child born into a non religious family is not necessarily born into atheism. Children are too young to truly grasp what religion and atheism are (Granted, there are some clever children out there, but do realize I speak in a general sense) and their beliefs are heavily influenced by their parents. There are no "Christian children," just as there are no "atheist children." Merely the child of parents who are Christian/atheist [Not picking on Christians, it is merely the predominate religion] .





|8 I'm going to go back to my previous point of "I see no point to this topic, in the end it is a debate between religion and atheism." Perhaps the title should change.

Posted by: Crimson Flash Jan 27 2011, 12:47 AM

I personally find no joy in debating whether atheism is a religion or not. What exactly would one be trying to prove by arguing this point? Nothing useful at all, that's what.

Also, I don't think babies really are of any religions affinity when they are born. Atheism is the belief that gods or higher beings don't exist, and theism is the belief that gods exist. A baby would be neither, since it has has not the time nor the mental capacity to think about it. Right?

I don't see anything wrong with being atheist. An atheist who has morals and respect for others is a good slap in the face towards anyone who thinks religion is required to have any sense of morality.

Posted by: Mercenary Raven Jan 27 2011, 02:12 AM

I felt that atheism was the lack of belief in any sort of system or religion... contrary to what the word parts mean ('A-' meaning 'no' and '-theism' somehow meaning 'God' even though it has a word root of 'theory'). That would make a baby atheistic seeing as it has no belief system (because it lacks the awareness to do so)... but that's beside the point. We're still arguing atheism?

The only thing we can argue anymore is semantics which is pointless because I hate assigning words to my belief systems aside from the most vague I can use. "Indifferent" is a better word for my system than "atheist" because it gets off the connotations that I wish -- perfectly neutral with no sort of difference towards any party when it deals with religion. Even the word Atheist can rub people the wrong way, and very rarely the correct way.

On top of that, you can't really say much more than "babies don't have the ability to determine their own religion." It's pointless to argue whether or not this is deemed "atheist" because that's semantics/only arguing how to say the facts . Which is a waste of time. I feel as if this argument exists either for the sake if drawing out a thread with next to no potential, or because some religious peoples don't enjoy having their babies called "atheists" because they [the babies] don't know any better. Which goes back to semantics and the negative connotations of the word (the negative connotations which shouldn't exist, mind you).

Posted by: LiteSpeed Jan 28 2011, 02:07 AM

Eh, it has become pointless. Mods, if you wish it, close the thread. LET IT BE DONE

Posted by: Mercenary Raven Jan 28 2011, 10:18 AM

*shrug* we'll see where things go..

Posted by: bijoukaiba Jan 28 2011, 12:51 PM

This. Thank you, this is exactly what I was trying to explain earlier in the thread.

Posted by: walreintusk Jan 28 2011, 08:58 PM

Well I am an "Atheist", or I guess you could say "Heavily Agnostic" if that is an even a term, or anything close. But I have recently joined a religion specifically made for non-believers known as Pasatafarianism (God is a flying spahgetti monster, known as FSM.) Though I don't actually believe in FSM, being Pastafarian has showed me why people are religious. I nowhave a group of people around the world that I can immeadietly connect to.

I have more to say, butI don't want totickanymore people off than I already am with the above paragraph. Anyone want the link to the FSM website?

Posted by: Mercenary Raven Jan 28 2011, 09:35 PM

http://www.venganza.org/

I love how one-track this conversation is. You more or less looked to me for validation as to what you were saying, but you missed my most important points in the later portion of the post which not only trivializes what you're saying, but still puts the meaning of "atheism" up in the air for however one interprets it.

In other words, I feel just fucking ecstatic that you agree with the first paragraph of my post, but I feel terrible that you didn't read on.

Posted by: bijoukaiba Jan 28 2011, 10:53 PM

:/ I did read the rest of the post, that was just the argument I had been trying to make in particular at that point. *feels stupid*

I guess it's just hard to explain, as stated. It's like they will have the potential to believe or not to believe, which will be influenced by what their parents want them to believe since children are very impressionable early on.

It's sort of how there's a lot of arguments over America being "a Christian nation" or being secular. Religious groups start complaining how - because of freedom of religion, and separation of church and state - some laws or rules offend their beliefs, like gay marriage, abortion, the death penalty, assisted suicide, prayer/Creationism in schools, etc. The latter one in particular... let's say the Christians got their way, and allowed students to pray in school. Other religions/beliefs, like Islam, Hindu, atheism, etc. might be offended that their beliefs aren't being considered. Why not teach the kids how the Greek gods created the world (after all, I do have a friend who actually does believe in the Greek gods)? In the end, the only way to be fair to everyone is to be fair to no one. When two kids are fighting over a toy, and refuse to take turns, what happens? Mom takes the toy away and tells them to play with something else.

So, because America's government cannot favor a religion in making decisions (it's not supposed to at least ), they make their decisions in a secular way (or, again, they are supposed to.)
So, because a baby cannot decide what it will believe in, it still does not believe anything.

I tried to have that make sense, but it still probably doesn't.

Just go back to the initial argument. There are good and bad people everywhere, and beliefs/religion don't necessarily have an effect on that. Boom. Done.

Posted by: Mercenary Raven Jan 28 2011, 11:42 PM

i think america set itself up for contradiction. majority rule vs the bill of rights... which is prioritized here?

Posted by: Iconox Feb 22 2011, 06:52 PM

I'm a Christian. Sure, I might think that atheists don't believe the right thing, but I'm not running around and yelling at them to convert and what not. I don't normally even bring my personal views up unless I'm explicitly asked. What you believe is what you believe; anything else is just infringing on that freedom.

Posted by: Tatzelwyrm Feb 22 2011, 09:59 PM

Ah. Now if only more theists had something similar to that mindset.

Posted by: TheNightSeeker Feb 28 2011, 02:35 PM

I'm an atheist and I go to a catholic school. I think the catholic religion is interesting, especially when we are studying it in Greek and getting the meaning out of bible verses, but I have no belief in God or Jesus. I don't know about all atheists being 'evil' though. If I decided to be Christian, wouldn't I be evil in the Sikh religion? I'm also open to religions and I don't put people down for what they believe in. I am not completely ignorant, because I would be interested to learn about other religions. I know a lot of Christians, and most of them are really nice people and I get along with them well because they are genuinely nice people, and we don't really care about each others religions

Posted by: rileyup Feb 28 2011, 05:25 PM

my brothers church group says they are evil but thats not true they can be nice or mean people should not be judged based on belief only on charactor theres plenty of nice athiests and some mean ones i beleive only god should judge religion

Posted by: Sladin4Ever Mar 6 2011, 06:00 AM

I was raised in a Christian household/family and growing up I had to go to church and Sunday school most of the time. Once I hit middle school final year, I converted to Atheism because I do not believe in the bible and whatnot. I support Atheists who don't care if you're part of a religion and just keep it to themselves. But I don't like Atheists who go around being jerks to religious people. I am Atheist but I love my family and I have religious friends and we get along just fine. I may not believe in a God and scriptures of religions, but I can tolerate it being around and I don't go around being a jerk. As far as "evil Atheists go", I don't believe they exist. As I said already, I'm Atheist, but I was raised to be a kind, caring person. Sure you have mean Atheists who spout how much they hate religions, but that doesn't make one "evil". As long as people don't try shoving their beliefs down my throat and/or try to convert me, I tolerate religions and the people associated with them

Posted by: zerohundred May 11 2012, 10:50 PM

I'm sort of mixed view here. If you are a good person and aren't offensively athiest then i don't care. if you are one of those there-is-no-such-thing as this and that and are arrogent about it then i don't like that. as long as you are open minded and not arrogent about it atheism is technically a religion and i won't care about what someone believes in. now if you are arrogent and ignorant about it, that's just offensive.

Posted by: shore14 May 11 2012, 11:10 PM

ok so ive been lookong for awhile now and cant get a hit so i know this is off topic but i really want a growlithe but i cant offer anything good for it egg would be best thanks

Posted by: Mercenary Raven May 12 2012, 02:06 AM

This is not the trade station.

Posted by: sinx May 16 2012, 01:55 PM

Born a Catholic, raised a Catholic, went to a convent school, realised science held the answers, decided to become a geneticist, became an atheist because religion filed to make sense any more.
I was never really devout but it was just a matter of realising I didn't need to have a religion.

Posted by: purple umbreon May 16 2012, 01:59 PM

I am Christian. But I don't care for religions at all.
You just believe in what you want to believe, God or no god.

Posted by: Hexxy May 16 2012, 02:12 PM

Atheists and Christians and all religions can act the same way. Your religion has nothing to do with your personality. Not all Christians are amazing, not all Atheists are douchebags.
So, yeah.
/atheist myself

Posted by: jellybean chi Mar 19 2013, 11:46 PM

when i was younger i had a friend who was some kind of egyptian paganist or something but he didn't believe in God or Heaven, so i asked him why he believed that if he was going to go to hell for it. i was a stupid, ignorant kid, and that was before i got a full blast jesus mode education. i respect everyone's beliefs now that i'm educated, but i will lose that respect immediately if said atheist boasts they are more justified in claiming there is no God than i am for claiming there is a God just because his or her claim is "based on science." i may be a jesus freak, but i'm a really literal scientific one, and it doesn't seem very "scientific" to me for someone to claim something so definitely and sure with no proof to support their claim. an atheist can't prove the nonexistence of a higher being, it's just not possible. at least any more than i can actually prove the existence of the higher being, which i can't. that's why i respect their belief until a certain extent.
atheists should also know that religion isn't what makes us have faith, but the God Himself. That's what i believe, anyway.

Posted by: Rainbow Dash x Jun 4 2013, 12:17 AM

It's funny how many completely wrong things you say in this discussion, like this. Atheist and Agnostic are not mutually exclusive, and you CAN label yourself as an atheist and still believe there's a possibility a god might exist.

Posted by: Glacial Sovereign Jun 4 2013, 03:39 PM

Topics like this are mostly decided by the people who post in it, you can only get a fair answer if equal amounts post here and give their perspective and obviously differing sides on it. So far i'm seeing one side's presence here more than the other.

In all honesty i believe there is a God but the way it's brought across to me as an individual is questionable. Same with there not being one/ even the possibility of there being one(this just shows being indecisive to me).

It's all in your questioning who you are and the inner mechanisms of how the World operates, that's what'll give you your answer, in my honest but humble opinion.

Atheism is a choice, just like doing anything in this world. No one should be bashed for it as respect is a pivotal part of human relations.

That's just my 2 cents.

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 4 2013, 07:22 PM

chillll son that post is like 3 years old at this point lol

Posted by: Rainbow Dash x Jun 5 2013, 01:45 AM

Really doesn't matter - this place is for debate, and I'm debating. It's said that you debate more for your audience than the person you're actually engaged with, and that's very true. No one challenged him on his point, so I corrected it for the people who read it and actually thought it was true.

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 5 2013, 11:32 PM

I don't really care too much about the content of your post nor the fact that you responded, it's your tone. Perception is reality and the fact that you sounded irritated and on top of that condescending to a semi-harmless post from 3 years ago is what I was talking more about than your actual point. The way you express your thoughts has almost equal weight as the thoughts themselves, perception is reality, etc

Posted by: Rainbow Dash x Jun 6 2013, 06:17 AM

You shouldn't debate tone, you should debate the points. I really disagree with the assertion that tone can be equal to the actual content. My tone was not intentionally aggressive. It's a fact that he was saying a lot of incorrect things throughout his postings, it's not an insult to say someone is wrong. I never once insulted him.

His tone was very rude and condescending to begin with. With sentences such as "I do not like how kids these days just throw around vocabulary that they might not 100% understand and yet they use it like they know what they mean." - made even worse by the fact that he is wrong. I find it odd that you call out my tone whilst ignoring his much worse and much more hostile tone. I understand the post is old, but you did call it "harmless" while insinuating that there was something wrong with my tone.

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 6 2013, 05:46 PM

Rainbow Dash let us continue this in http://forums.gtsplus.net/index.php?showtopic=69364. Note that I'm not warning you or anything near that extent, by the way, I'm just stating my opinion that you should probably chill, evaluate the context, and take into account how your post could look when evaluated in context before picking a point to dissect lol

Posted by: Samoo Jun 6 2013, 06:01 PM

Throwing my own penny in the fountain here but

What's the point in having 2 groups if they're not exclusive? I just. What.

If you don't believe in a God or some higher power then that's fine. But surely if you don't believe in something like that, then you can't say they also think there's a possibility that a God might exist. Because that would be pretty much Agnostic.

I'm probably reading this entirely wrong or I fluked my religion class, but I'm pretty sure you can't be both Agnostic and Atheist at one time :l Essentially saying you're Atheist but also believing there's a possibility of a God cancels out the whole Atheist thinking and sits you in Agnostic.

My brain hurts trying to understand all of what you said and how you thought of it in the first place graaaah (this is also the part where I look like a complete tit because I'm wrong)

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 6 2013, 06:05 PM

Yeah I definitely thought Atheists were firm with their beliefs but Agnostics were generally soft and open. I know Agnostics are further split up into something along the lines of weak and strong - the former being more apathetic (and probably actually Apatheistic) and the latter being very contemplative. Of course, there's probably more of a spectrum thing here, because I have a hard time believing Agnostics come in two flavors. Here's to say, it may seem like they're the same on the surface but they're pretty mutually exclusive as far as I can tell lol

Posted by: Synx Itax Jun 9 2013, 07:42 PM

Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. The former deals with belief, and the latter deals with knowledge. I am an agnostic atheist -- I don't believe any kind of god exists, but I don't claim to know if he/she/it/they does/do. I used to subscribe to the "agnostics just aren't sure..." but if you look at the roots of the word, belief vs. knowledge makes sense.

There are also gnostic atheists (or as well call them "hard atheists") who claim to know that a god doesn't exist. Same applies to religious people.

Nope. I admit that there is a possibility that a god exists of some kind, just like there's a possibility that the Loch Ness monster exists. I just don't believe in either until the burden of proof for believing in them is met.

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 9 2013, 07:45 PM

But then what you're describing seems to pretty much mean agnostic lol so I don't understand why the wordplay of "agnostic atheist" exists when it describes more or less an agnostic

Posted by: Synx Itax Jun 9 2013, 07:48 PM

It's just to make things more specific, I guess. There are agnostic theists, too.

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 9 2013, 07:58 PM

That's too much, I think it's pointless to argue the use of the word as it stands anyway because
a) it's easier to understand someone who says that they don't really believe in God but doesn't deny his lack of existence
b) Arguments about word meanings are pointless and take too much time

Posted by: Rainbow Dash x Jun 12 2013, 11:09 AM

I believe someone created the word agnostic a long time ago, something that many atheists are not thrilled about. I prefer referring to myself as an atheist, because I believe god doesn't exist like I don't believe a yeti exists. I would say "I don't believe a yeti exists", because that's the most logical conclusion. Even if 80% of the world believed in yetis, it doesn't make them existing any more likely. The evidence of their existence is highly lacking. So while I can't prove they don't existence, that's not a good enough reason to entertain their existence.

People often say "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", but they use that phrase incorrectly. If you can reasonably expect evidence of something, then the lack of evidence for it is very telling.

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 12 2013, 05:42 PM

I don't understand any of your points past the words "I prefer referring to myself as an atheist"

Posted by: Rainbow Dash x Jun 13 2013, 11:25 AM

I meant not only do people not assume that I can swayed by all the "evidence" they have that I've heard 100 times before if I call myself an atheist, but also that I wouldn't refer to myself as a yeti-agnostic. People wouldn't take issue with me saying "yetis don't exist, there's no evidence". When it comes to god, they expect me to prove it's impossible. It's exceedingly hard to prove something doesn't exist, and it's not something I need to do. They need to prove their god exists.

I was also saying if it's reasonable to expect evidence of something (such as a god), then absence of evidence is a pretty good evidence of absence.

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 13 2013, 07:10 PM

I don't see where the comparison to yetis and God came in, because God was an establishment of many civilizations (and still remains to be) whereas yetis are just some mythical creature. On the flipside, you can't prove them wrong by saying that you dont believe in yetis lol because the concept and context is completely different. That's simplifying an argument and intellectually dishonest from my point of view.

Posted by: Samoo Jun 13 2013, 07:37 PM

After reading through several times I really don't see how that even responded to what I said in my previous post. That mostly consisted of the points of view of you trying to explain religious words through the use of a creature that may or may not exist?

But that still doesn't really explain as to why for some reason Agnostics = Atheists..

People may use all these fancy expansions of the 3 words but why? Why confuse things? Just keep the three damn words the same and state whether you do, maybe or don't think there' a God.

Few posts behind but whatever.

Posted by: Rainbow Dash x Jun 13 2013, 07:38 PM

Unicorns and dragons are an establishment of many civilizations. Doesn't make it true. There's not any evidence that a god is true.

Posted by: Little Peanut Jun 13 2013, 07:48 PM

I believe that there are two types opinions by which we judge people on,
opinions that can be deemed socially aceptable to judge people on,
and opinions one believes that are acceptable to judge people based on are own opinions

so I believe should not judge people on their religious beliefs unless they contradict a set of morals that I believe in, that being things such as killing people is bad, and things along that line.

Posted by: Rainbow Dash x Jun 14 2013, 05:01 PM

My bad, only my first sentence really addressed what you said. The rest was talking about what others had said in the thread. I realise that was unclear looking back. I'll go back and try to address it more thoroughly.


 
It's not exactly the same thing, it's just that atheism can incorporate the same ideas commonly expressed as agnostic. There are different ways to express that you believe a god existing is possible, like "soft atheism" and agnostic atheism", and many people just shorten that to atheism. Even people who say they believe a god is possible are not necessarily saying it's likely. People can also refer to themselves as theists and have agnostic leanings.



You can, as atheism is described as denial or disbelief of god. Disbelief doesn't mean you're asserting it's 100% not true.


Again, that's not true. Agnosticism is a subset of atheism, while atheism is the bigger and more umbrella term. An example is having the label "disabled", someone who is blind can still use the term "disabled" to refer to themselves, nothing wrong with that. Though .. as I said earlier referring to oneself as "soft atheist" in place of "agnostic" is very common and in some cases preferred.


They're not being changed. Atheism has included beliefs commonly called agnostic since before the word agnostic even existed.

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 15 2013, 01:21 PM

I don't know if we can just can this whole atheism vs agnosticism debate. They're just words, just describe what you believe and get the word debates the hell away from here because nobody cares if the words are the same thing. Look at a http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism instead of arguing. I think it's generally agreed upon by peopel who do not look very much into religious terms at all that agnosticism is contemplation of belief and atheism is a firm belief, and that's more or less what matters; the general perception of the words and not the technical definition of the words themselves

You're fucking kidding me. What civilizations are those? Anime clubs? I'm not using it as evidence, I'm saying you can't make anything akin to those arguments to disprove God simply because
a) it's a very philosophical point
b) it is the basis of the way of life of many people in this world. Look at the numbers. In 2005 the number was like 54% of the people in this world
And let me take this time to remind you that it's not proof that God exists, because I already know exactly what kind of debater you are and will be. It's simply proof that your arguments do not work against the majority of people in this world.

I'm an apatheist myself, but you probably don't realize that your comparisons of God to other things that we are 99% sure are fantasy are unfounded and quite ignorant.

Posted by: Synx Itax Jun 15 2013, 03:36 PM

Actually, Rainbow Dash x makes a very good point. Dragons ARE found in many civilizations around the world -- a basic study of world history would show this. They're extremely important in Chinese cultures, South American cultures (or at least they were several hundred to thousand years ago), and a variety of others, though the look and feel of the dragon might vary. In fact, people are still wondering why civilizations have such similar concepts for dragons when they've never interacted with each other. I'm not sure about unicorns, but I know they were also present in Chinese culture in the form of kirin/quilin, and I know they were part of European mythology as well. A lot of these beasts were considered gods -- just look at Quetzalcoatl, for instance -- so they were very important.

However, just because people held them in such high regard doesn't mean that they exist, nor has evidence been found for them. The comparison to a god is perfectly valid, and I could make the same claim for the loch ness monster, bigfoot, etc. I'd find those latter things far more plausible than a god, myself. And if a culture worships dragons or unicorns, their beliefs aren't suddenly less valid than someone who just believes in some human-like god in the sky. Both require proof, and without them, I sure won't bother believing.

Posted by: Rainbow Dash x Jun 15 2013, 04:36 PM

And you tried to say I was being aggressive earlier ..

Just what kind of debater do you perceive me to be? If you're attacking my points bring up something that counters what I said. You implied that god being an establishment of many civilizations somehow gives it more merit. You said yetis are "just some mythical creature", while implying god was not. Unless you can prove god is more than just a mythical creature, I think the comparison to other mythical creatures is very relevant. How many civilizations believe and still believe in it is hardly relevant.

Also, what Synx said about the dragons. They're certainly more than just topics for anime clubs.

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 16 2013, 10:35 AM

That's not my point. My point is the comparison doesn't fly when at least half the world is extremely sure that there is a God. You can disprove dragons and unicorns easily because there's not nearly as many people that believe in Chinese culture as the Abrahamic religions (or any religion for that matter).

You think it really matters to me whether or not you believe in God and whether or not you require proof for a God and whether or not a yeti is more believable than a God? No! But it will not fly with most religious people, who legitimately believe there is proof every single day of a God, especially because their flow of logic will not agree with yours. The same with the Chinese cultures you are referring to because in that case, it is almost the same context. The right to make comparisons with strong wording in such a way that makes this large portion of the world sound stupid is incredibly rude and quite unfair to those of different faith/belief, especially because religion established itself properly in the minds of many far before many of our scientific theories became widespread.

Let me add to this that I really do not care what you believe and I do not see myself changing your faith (because I'm still nowhere near changing mine despite my arguments), I just believe the way yall are arguing gives the impression of closed-mindedness that rubs me in the completely wrong way. Before we continue I'd love for you to answer a question:
Do you believe most of the world is stupid for being theistic?

Posted by: Me llaman Cris Jun 16 2013, 10:41 AM

I'm atheist and I was in a Christian school for 4 years, and nothing have changed, and no one noticed that I wasn't christian, lots of people there was atheist too, and we don't think religion is good or bad, I just don't think there is something afterlife or a Salvation or anything, I just think I'm gonna die, and things happen because they have to happen, but if someone thinks that there is someone or something that makes us live, I just respect the idea, but I can't believe something like that.
Each one believe in a different thing, I think

Posted by: Commander Wymsy Jun 16 2013, 12:00 PM

I don't understand why you just not too long along ago told people to steer away from comments like this in a different debate thread but now you're doing it yourself. Perhaps you should take your own words into account, and try to be more careful and lash-out less in sensitive topics such as this one.

Posted by: Synx Itax Jun 16 2013, 12:10 PM

Stupid? No, I just think a great many are misguided and are often believing for the wrong reasons. A great lot of them were indoctrinated, which is a huge reason why so many people believe in the first place. Plenty of cultures got converted a while back, and they continue indoctrinating their culture/children/etc today through many methods. I frankly don't care if people believe or not, just like I don't care if people believe in dragons or unicorns. The problem lies when they're pushing those beliefs on others when they are unwanted, and also when they claim to KNOW there is a god (the "extremely sure there's a god" people you mentioned, I guess); gnostic theism is pointless because if someone actually knew there was a god AND provided proof, they'd deserve several serious scientific prizes for ending the god/no god debate. But... no such proof has been given, and "look at the world around you!" isn't proof (many of them love to throw that around).

Also, the argument from majority means nothing to me. I don't care if most of the world believes and for how long they've believed. If they just believe in a god figure, once again, it doesn't really bother me. If they're going to believe ancient tales despite current scientific theories and are going to claim things like the Earth being 6,000 years old or existing on the back of a turtle, I'm going to wonder how seriously they got indoctrinated and how damaging it will be if they actively try to convert others.

You do not disprove something because more people believe otherwise. A long time ago, most people (at least in Greek culture -- I can't speak for the rest of the world) believed the sun revolved around the Earth (many of them Christian theologians who saw how it contradicted their texts, actually). Well, looks like the minority was, in fact, correct. This may not be a supernatural analogy, but it's the same type of thing. Most people COULD be wrong. All it takes it evidence from one side or the other, whether it's a god, dragons, fairies, unicorns, etc.

Back when the Abrahamic religions were new, most people believed in other things such as the Roman/Greek pantheon. So... I guess we could disprove the Abrahamic god that way? See, it's the same thing. Things change with time. In the future, maybe most people will either not believe in something, believe in a five-necked dragon beast, or who knows what else.

I sincerely fail to see how any of this is "rude." I'm laying out some history for those who might not be familiar with it, I'm responding to logical fallacies with points I'm making, I'm making perfectly logical comparisons. If you don't feel that comparing dragons (once seen as gods, again) to a general Abrahamic or otherwise god is valid, well, that's really your opinion and you can have it. For me, though, and many other people, one mythical entity does not sit above the other as neither has evidence for it.

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 16 2013, 12:31 PM

I think the continual perception I've been receiving from some of these posts (especially from this particular person) has been more than enough for me to fly off a little bit. But it's not like I've insulted them, because the way the post was expressed was what caused it. Having that said I do apologize, however my point still stands and I stand by what I said despite how that was perceived.

I hardly believe indoctrination is the issue simply because there exist religious people on the internet (who are sometimes afraid to express themselves for fear of being looked down on; they really do have this fear and it is hard to back yourself up when you're backed against a wall).

However you have to understand that it states in many of their religious scripture that they have to be extremely sure of a God and that all doubt is purged. Indoctrination or not, it's apart of their religion and much of it states that you have to also try to convince others. Granted, it doesn't always work and I don't like it but I hold absolutely nothing against it because it's apart of what they believe and they feel it is their duty to save others. Indoctrination or not, proof or not, it's what they've always believed growing up and, as for people that I personally interact with on a day to day basis, yes they question it but it's their faith ultimately that wins over and they do find some other portion of scripture that answers their questions. You may not see it because you're involved with your own mindset; even I slip into the "that's not logical" mindset, but it's that lack of understanding and clarity which allows me to accept the fact that many are probably not indoctrinated. I've always heard that people are pretty weakly religious or not quite understanding of a religion until their 20s or 30s, which was the thing I've heard from many people who are religious right now, so it could be that the people you interact with on a day to day basis (younger people) aren't misguided so much as still malleable.

I don't think most people believe in 6000 years, and if not that then they also don't know a lick of science simply because they've been held away from it. I don't think it's so much indoctrination as it is ignorance, but there are many people who see some parts of the Bible as metaphorical as opposed to literal. I'm not an expert on the subject so I'm not going to comment any further on this subject.

That's not what my point is. My point is if you're going to disprove something at all, then you should find another way especially considering your exact arguments could have some sort of counterargument associated with them that's been thrown around repeatedly. This probably hasn't been the only religious debate on the internet everywhere, and the general perception of atheists in a religious debate is as aggressive and close minded so I do apologize in advance if I slip into this sort of assumption at points. Frankly, the past has not improved my perception of the way these kinds of debates can go, and I do apologize for taking it out on you.

You weren't the one being rude, but the perception of the wording is what caused me to fly off simply because it's trivializing the full extent of the argument as well as the beliefs of many people by comparing their ultimate holy being to a yeti. I find it rude because it's also the belief system my entire family follows and they've done so without hurting anyone at all.

As for comparing it to dragons and unicorns, the comparison is definitely legitimate, but reread the original point made. It was made in an extremely dishonest way, as if to give an impression that religion is stupid because it can lead to the belief in dragons and unicorns, which is commonly believed to be a stupid thing to believe in. I did not put on my critical thinking cap to put up the connections, but I just wanted to say something slightly witty too, because I thought it would be somewhat amusing to say. Looks like the f word killed the tone. Historically, you are correct and I do see the point clearly now but I hardly believe that was the intent. If it was the intent, then the effort was too low.

I hope you understand my point and emotions a little bit better at the very least.

Posted by: Rainbow Dash x Jun 16 2013, 04:12 PM

I have been nothing but reasonable throughout this conversation. I have never once attacked you personally, excluding me mentioning your tone, and even that was not an attack. You're making me feel uncomfortable even participating in this conversation because of the snide remarks you have repeatedly directed towards me. I've gone over my posts and again and I honestly can not see what I'm saying that makes me come off as rude. If it's about me saying god doesn't have any evidence .. that's going to happen in religion debates, and that's me attacking the premises of a religion, not you. This subject is touchy and I've done my best to respect that, however I do not feel that from you in return.

Posted by: Lord Raven Jun 16 2013, 05:19 PM

If you think at all that I think you're being hostile, aggressive, or you're attacking me then I doubt you understand the point I'm making. My point was that your points were expressed in a way to either make it clear that religion was stupid or outright state it without any backing other than "there's no proof." That, by definition, doesn't work as an argument against faith or belief, nor does it hold against those who feel that they do have proof, which is the other point I was making. It's not about saying there's no evidence btw, it's complete disrespect by stating its equivalent to believing in a yeti or dragons/unicorns (without any context to make it sound completely stupid).

You say you feel uncomfortable? Cool, I apologize but I don't know if you can see how your posts can be construed the same way. It's quite unreasonable to come off as almost dismissing the entire argument altogether and making that dismissal whole crux of your argument rather than examining it further.

Posted by: Zurrz Jun 27 2013, 10:24 AM

I was born into a very strict Roman Catholic family, I was Baptized, I attended nothing but private Catholic schools while a child, I took part in many choir and theatrical productions through that same school. I went to church as part of my school day (the school is right next to the church it shares a name with) and went every Sunday with my family. Religion was part of my life and is sacred in my family.

I can't remember even a single instance where I believed in God. As a child I tried very hard to believe, of course I wanted to fit in with my family, but I just couldn't see any evidence in my own life or those close to me to prove that this being existed.

I learned how to read at a very young age, I was reading chapter books while my peers were just starting to understand how to sound out words in picture books. Because I was such an avid reader at such a young age I was able to research subjects and gain a better understanding of the natural world, I think it must have been this knowledge seeking that made me realize I really didn't belong in the situation I was in. I was, on some very basic level, able to tell that these "Godly" occurrences weren't actually anything.

I've had bad experiences in Catholic school, but when I finally got to go to a public school as a teenager I had bad experiences as well. I know a lot of believers, as I know many non-believers. Both groups are similar, both can take their viewpoints to the extreme, both can be typically understanding of other opinions. I don't sterotype against entire groups, if I dislike you it's not because of your religion.

In short: I turned my back on God a long time ago in favor of science, but I didn't turn my back on people in favor of scientists.

Posted by: vaashole Mar 23 2014, 10:27 PM

I identify as an atheist. I do not believe there is a higher power.
Much like feminism, there are the radical feminists and there are the radical atheists that make the rest of us look bad.
Just because we don't believe in a higher power doesn't not mean we are bad people. Condemning us to "hell" means nothing since we don't believe in it.

I digress, let people believe in what they want to. As long as it doesn't change your life personally in any way, it shouldn't matter to you (keep in mind that I am using the general you, not the specific you).

Posted by: SolarMoon59 Mar 24 2014, 03:10 PM

I have to agree. Just because I have a certain view doesn't mean I can tell other people their views aren't true.

Of course, I have no specific view on whether a higher power exists or not. I think I'll figure that out when I die, but that's besides the point.

I think people should be allowed to believe in what they want, so long as they don't force their views on other people.

Posted by: Chespin Mar 24 2014, 07:44 PM

I'm a Christian, and I grew up in church and all that. Personally I think that many Christians are a little too hard on others, like when we try to shove our beliefs on them as we tell them how wrong they are. Nobody wants to hear that, and we are just as messed up as everyone else. Plus, we are supposed to love others, but is this really loving them?

I think it's okay for you to believe in whatever. God gives people a choice. I don't hate atheists because they're "on the wrong path" - it's their decision. As humans, we can't change other people's views. Only God can do that.

Of course I am guilty of a lot of this as well. Nobody is perfect, including me.

Posted by: The Majestic Mr L Mar 24 2014, 08:00 PM

Same here. Well said, Chespin!

Posted by: Lord Raven Apr 4 2014, 01:06 AM

While I do agree that I don't like the nagging, I wholly understand why the nagging is there - some do believe it is their duty to the bible and God to spread the word (and it's in the text as well). I'm personally not interested, but I know people who have turned their lives around because of newfound religious beliefs. It's not inherently black and white, and "shoving their religion down your throat" has done more good than bad (the good being turning lives around; the bad being general annoyance).

Of course, I also distinguish "using the bible in the name of conquest" and "using the bible in the name of God." I'm describing the latter and not the former.

Posted by: Aberrant Mercutio Jun 19 2014, 02:02 PM

I'd have to agree with several of the earlier posters: it's the extremists that ruin things for everybody.

Atheist extremists that think believing in something you can't see is stupid seem blind to me. Christian extremists that think all non-Christians are damned to Hell and that their way is the only way seem closed-minded to me. And Muslim extremists... well, they make me feel very very bad for all the regular Muslim people who face quite a bit of discrimination (here in the States, at least).

I've never quite liked the concept of believing in one religion only for your entire life. I was raised Catholic, I became agnostic, and I am now atheist. I think I would be lying to myself if I said that I will stay atheist my entire life. However, I don't believe that makes me 'agnostic'. I don't think that just because I vary in beliefs makes my belief in present time any less solid, and I don't think that I'm wishy-washy about this stuff either. I feel like believing in only one religion your entire life is almost a little like listening to the same band or genre of music over and over (obviously on a much, much greater scale). At the very least, I think that listening to all different people of different beliefs for a reason other than debating can't hurt anybody.

Posted by: Amyline Jul 4 2014, 12:49 PM

I'm a Christian, but i don't think atheits are evil.

Posted by: Gryphaena Aug 7 2014, 05:26 PM

I don't know if I can imagine being atheist, but then, I'm raised Catholic, my sister and her husband are Jewish, my aunt has a Buddhist shrine(?) in her house and her former partner is a Unitarian.

Maybe that sentence doesn't do a good job illustrating my point. There are different points of view, but there is truth.

I think life on earth can be terribly beautiful, amazing and frightening. There are awesome flowers like on the passionfruit vine, there are scary parasites like the Guinea worm, and there are the Archaebacteria that can survive in extreme environments no other living thing can tolerate.

If there are such diverse mortal things, how much greater and profound are the divine?

Posted by: Uilliam Eberhart Aug 7 2014, 07:39 PM

Your family sounds awesome.
I bet holidays are a pain though...

Posted by: Gryphaena Aug 7 2014, 11:54 PM

No, there was a sorta dicey time when my other aunt who lives in West Virginia came with her Palestinian husband. My sister had always thought he and his family were from Jordan, but that was because they had to go there.

They decided they wouldn't talk about certain things...

Holidays are fine. I just have to remember not to say Merry Christmas to my sister and brother in law and his parents and sisters.